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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1701853 -

First of all I don't think there's anything wrong with people who use drugs to "get fucked up" its their choice, but they need to be educated to use drugs responsibly. They can get as "fucked up" as they like, so long as they aren't casuing harm to other people or propert, and making sure they are looking outr for themselves.

Education is the key. All drugs should be legalised imnsho, and all drugs can be used responsibly, the problem is people don't learn anywhere near enough about the drugs they use (alcohol included). This is where our governments' resources would be best used, teaching people how to use drugs responsibly, rather than wasting it on try to enforce prohibition.


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"Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life."

- Terry Pratchett, Jingo, 1997

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: tooky]
    #1701938 -

Somebody is going to get addicted even if the substance is legal or not. I think legalizing it would get rid of a lot of other problems, which is good. There will still be addicts.
I agree that people need to learn how to use drugs responcibly. This could happen easily through TV ads or by parents or teachers. A drug class could happen. Hell, there is already the DARE program.
If drugs became legal today do you think the amount of people that use drugs would go up, and the quantity? What about the next generation? Would more people do drugs than now?

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1702344 -

>>you said we would have to have real drug education in school's.

I didn't say that...someone else in the thread did.

Love & Light,

Boppity

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1702659 -

crazycanadian said:
If drugs became legal today do you think the amount of people that use drugs would go up, and the quantity? What about the next generation? Would more people do drugs than now?


In countries where they have already legalized certain drugs the rates of addiction have not risen as a result. Recreational use goes up, but there will always be a core number of users who will refuse to educate themselves beforehand and become addicted. I don't see why it would be any different here.

One of the negative things about the drug war is the fact that it makes drugs look like they take your free will away, when in fact they don't. Drugs are not monsters. They tell kids in school "Don't even try it once otherwise you'll become addicted and not have any choice wether you quit or not" "theyll ruin your life...' blah, blah. It's not true. What is true is the fact that most people who try a drug DON'T get addicted, and are in fact able to use responsibly or recreationally. Look at alcohol, nearly every single person tries it here in america, but theres only a small percentage of people who let it ruin their lives, or who overindulge like idiots.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1702744 -

lateralus said:
crazycanadian said:
If drugs became legal today do you think the amount of people that use drugs would go up, and the quantity? What about the next generation? Would more people do drugs than now?


In countries where they have already legalized certain drugs the rates of addiction have not risen as a result. Recreational use goes up, but there will always be a core number of users who will refuse to educate themselves beforehand and become addicted. I don't see why it would be any different here.

One of the negative things about the drug war is the fact that it makes drugs look like they take your free will away, when in fact they don't. Drugs are not monsters. They tell kids in school "Don't even try it once otherwise you'll become addicted and not have any choice wether you quit or not" "theyll ruin your life...' blah, blah. It's not true. What is true is the fact that most people who try a drug DON'T get addicted, and are in fact able to use responsibly or recreationally. Look at alcohol, nearly every single person tries it here in america, but theres only a small percentage of people who let it ruin their lives, or who overindulge like idiots.


Could you point us to examples besides amsterdam and nimbin about the legal drugs and addiction rates? Drugs arnt monsters, your absolutely right, but kids pressured through peer pressure, young adults through social status pressure, and adults just looking for a pick me up are much more likely to be involved with substances that are made EASILY available...especially if the RISK of having less than certain street drugs are taken away. The huge abuse of oxycotin could be a single example..its perfectly fine to snort a 100 dollar pill...to LOTS of people, but street heroin is for junkies. Do you deny there is an OUT-Of-Control oxycotin abuse going on? Do you deny that its not ruining lives?

So as i asked before; Whose going to take responsibility for those who arnt responsible?
How are drugs going to be cheaper, as i believe, you, claimed...for people with no money, and the money they use is Dirty?
So is the american government gonna tell them theyve been lying to the people adamently and demonizing heir own kind for 70 years now?

If you want anyone...to one day take you seriously, you are going to have to adress the problems i stated in my previous post.
This is like an anarchist preaching for anarchy in a democratic world..the argument is too flawed to be taken seriously by anyone who could ever effect change (think voters.)


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1704242 -

PDU said:
Could you point us to examples besides amsterdam and nimbin about the legal drugs and addiction rates? Drugs arnt monsters, your absolutely right, but kids pressured through peer pressure, young adults through social status pressure, and adults just looking for a pick me up are much more likely to be involved with substances that are made EASILY available...especially if the RISK of having less than certain street drugs are taken away. The huge abuse of oxycotin could be a single example..its perfectly fine to snort a 100 dollar pill...to LOTS of people, but street heroin is for junkies. Do you deny there is an OUT-Of-Control oxycotin abuse going on? Do you deny that its not ruining lives?


This is a good site where you can get a lot of addiction percentage info(with links to credible sites for their own info)http://www.drugwarfacts.org/ Or you could just do a search for 'drug war' 'addiction rates' etc. If you don't see that the drug war is nothing but harmful... I guess thats your own problem. The proof is everywhere. And yes I do deny that drugs are ruining lives. Drugs ruin nothing. Irresponsible, ignorant people ruin their own lives. Misplacing the blame on drugs is one of the things that has to stop. If it wasn't oxycontin, it'd be something else for these same addicted people. Quit blaming the inanimate objects on these peoples own irresponsibility.
Quote:
So as i asked before; Whose going to take responsibility for those who arnt responsible?
How are drugs going to be cheaper, as i believe, you, claimed...for people with no money, and the money they use is Dirty?
So is the american government gonna tell them theyve been lying to the people adamently and demonizing heir own kind for 70 years now?


Whos going to take responsibility for someone else actions? That doesn't make any sense. Are you trying to say the government would be responsible for 'putting these people in danger of themselves'? for 'making it easier for idiots to hurt themselves by making drugs legal'? I dont get what youre saying there, thats an oxymoron. People are responsible for their own actions. If they commit a crime trying to get drugs(i.e. robbery) then they will do the time as usual. I don't believe the legalization of drugs would create more thug criminals than there already are.

Drugs would in all likleyhood become cheaper with the cutting out of the black market 'hand me down and mark it up' middlemen. Nobody can say for sure that drugs will be more expensive/cheaper, because it hasnt happened yet. I would personally assume though that it'd be similar to alcohol or tobacco, nowhere near so spendy the average person couldnt get ahold of them cheaply and easily. The government would have their huge tax on it of course, but I do believe theres an upper-level limit to how high an item like a drug(which is cheap as dirt to produce) can go for. They will be sold by independant labs and growers who will be out to make a buck, and if they overprice them, they'll never make a sale.

"My fellow americans, we are liars." Boy it would sure as hell be nice! No, I don't think they'd ever say that. However, yes, they would have to admit they were wrong in some way, shape or form. Including pardoning all prison and jail inmates who had only drug violations(no trafficking or violent crimes). They need to admit they have been wrong, that they're sorry, and that they're going to change. Admit that it is not in the interest of freedom to be taking away peoples rights and property, locking them up for pursuing happiness. Thats a constitutional right: the pursuit of happiness. It needs to be looked at like a lifestyle choice such as homosexuality or religion. People said letting women vote would ruin the american society, people said freeing slaves would cause crime. "There will be chaos! and crime! and destruction! and immoral activity!" they shouted. They were wrong then, and they're wrong now.
Quote:
If you want anyone...to one day take you seriously, you are going to have to adress the problems i stated in my previous post.
This is like an anarchist preaching for anarchy in a democratic world..the argument is too flawed to be taken seriously by anyone who could ever effect change (think voters.)


I really don't care if anyone takes me seriously or not, this is all my opinion. I'm not a politician here, I really don't care to 'get the voters on my side'. Im going to live my life free regardless. The war on drugs will end, it's only a question of how and when. This government is choking under its own weight right now as it is. It's the fact that our freedoms have been taken away since the beginning is surfacing more and more. People are waking up at an unprecedented rate right now in america. It's only my opinion, but I think it'll be 'sink or swim' before long(if it isn't already). This society is too corrupt to hold on much longer(not to mention the world is pissed with us and our 'for us or against us' policy). I see drugs and our human relationship with nature(lack there of) as a key problem in this whole situation. They whole idea of freedom needs to be either actually and truly upheld as its written now, or completely reworked.

I did reply to your last post but it dissapeared in the posting:/ I think you may be right- maybe it is impossible. The 'issues' just arent the same for me. For me the issue is freedom. I believe that any bad that comes from legalization of drugs would be better than the hell and persecution we responsible entheogen users have to face daily as a result of the ridiculous 'war on freedom'.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1704311 -

alright, i can appreciate that post. Obviously we disagree, but the issue is the same for us...Freedom, we both value it to the fullest extent. Its pointless to have this ideological clashing of minds, but its been fun.

Not so sure what hell and persecution we as entheogen users experience though. I guess its definately different in the states, but i think people OD'ing on super pure heroin and busting lines in the family bathroom's is kind more a social problem than hurt feelings for drug users. Yeah...i dont want to be put down because of my beliefs either, held back, denied, or anything else....but i suppose ive accepted it, and the losing battle. I practice my own freedom's and dont intrude upon anyone else's and i have NO problems with the law ever....That would be how everyone in this ideological situation of "legalized drugs" would have to be, respectful. But greed among many other things will always keep lots of people away from being respectful, and these people are the reason the war on drugs, in my opinion will continue on..

(i was recently hearing about a time line to eradicated coca plants, opium poppies, and marijuana completely from this earth, awhile ago on the radio...the DEA clearly has BIG plans and are getting ever more persistant. The columbians having their towns overwashed with poison spray are some serious victims of the drug war...much more so than most of us.)

Its sad, it sucks big time, but the best we can do is practice our freedom's in a respectful manner, personally, and hope we are given respect in return. It works swell for me...here in BC, and i realize the states is very different...


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1704399 -

What I meant by the persecution we experience is: We have prison held over our heads constantly, we cant speak freely in public about our lifestyle, we get fired from jobs if we are found to be using certain drugs, we have to submit to preemployment and random drug tests, basically all that stuff. We have fear over our heads constantly.

I read about those DEA plans as well. That has to be some of the craziest, scariest stuff ive heared about this drug war yet. Complete global eradication of species of plants. Thats insane. Those Columbians do have it really bad with all those chemicals:(

Canada is definately a step ahead in the personal freedom area. Ive been thinking of moving there myself, or anywhere thats even a little more free than here. 3/4s of our prison population here are drug offenders, not only that, we have one of the highest percentage of citizens incarcerated of all countries on the planet(if not THE highest). The tactics that our wonderful DEA uses to get you in prison are hellish. They trick, lie and cheat people into prison here basically. They arent helping anyone but themselves(and our booming prison industry). It's a sad situation. They say 'If you don't like it here then move' here now, and thats exactly what Im going to do. :smile:

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1704456 -

I'm sorry i was too lazy too read all of what was said. I'm a bit tired.

The only way to get rid of the "i get fucked up"'s (IGFU's) is to spread knowledge. But with the suppression of vital entheogenic knowledge by the gov't, they IGFU's will always be around. Most user's i know don't know anything about what they put in their bodies. it's kinda, no, really sad. :frown:

-howardo

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1704472 -

Arresting med pot users who are liscensed by the states is absolutely ridiculous... or raiding pipe stores with swat teams? Like what in the hell is going through these officers heads? Have they actually been submitted to enough repetitive rhetoric that they believe they are fighting the good fight? It amazes me.

Anyways...i imagine you would really enjoy it up here...Some people make it out to be pretty rough still, but ive toked openly all over BC and never once been hassled, i trip...and i spread a good happy vibe to those around me in public, i chat it up with the police officers and debate the taboo issue's with near anyone, and rarely do i even get an snobbish attitude towards me.
Now...it needs to be how it is for me, for everyone responsible, and it is a fight worth fighting for. Everytime i read about the state's im reminded of that. Good discussion guys!



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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Howardo]
    #1704483 -

Howardo said:
I'm sorry i was too lazy too read all of what was said. I'm a bit tired.

The only way to get rid of the "i get fucked up"'s (IGFU's) is to spread knowledge. But with the suppression of vital entheogenic knowledge by the gov't, they IGFU's will always be around. Most user's i know don't know anything about what they put in their bodies. it's kinda, no, really sad. :frown:

-howardo 


Very freightening infact. I dont know how people could put the most powerful chemicals known to man in their bodies without prior knowledge other than my (or an idiots) comforting words...informed or not, they take it as the truth..which could potentially impact their life. Was i ever reminded of peoples irresponsibility when i got DMT..people who had never heard of it, and i had just introduced as "the most powerful drug you will ever find, it will kick your ass, and you might have to surrender to your own internal death" was responded to with: "les give it a go man, hook me up"....
Even with all the knowledge in the world, some responsible precautions are just too hard to validate the effort for alot of people.


 


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1704493 -

Too true, too true. Too many of my friends are the same way. Like hte old saying, "Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source."

that should be commandment # 11...... oh wait, no one follows those either, oh well..

har har har

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: Howardo]
    #1704511 -

Ive actually got a "drug shirt" planned...thats going to DMT molecule on the front, and on the back the list of drugs i enjoy and along the bottm "know your self, know your substance, know your source..."

Its good advice, and itll keep you safe....its worked fairly well for me.


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1712269 -

I thought this was interesting, but a good example why not to have legalized freedoms, such as drugs.


"In 1898, E. Merck of Darmstadt marketed the ethyl ether of morphine, called 'Dionin', which was the first semisynthetic morphine derivative, to serve as a cough sedative. That same year Heinrich Dreser of Friedrich Bayer and Company introduced diacetylmorphine (acetylated morphine) as the "heroic drug," having the ability of morphine to relieve but being "safer." Under the proprietary name 'Heroin' (diamorphine), this drug quickly became popular worldwide (Bayer had a very large painkilling business with Heroin and Aspirin!). The very strong heroin was widely prescribed and could be purchased by mail order through the Sears, Roebuck catalog. By 1900, there were an estimated 1,000,000 opiate addicts in the United States, often addicted by accident. So even though it was initially hailed as a nonaddictive morphine substitute, heroin actually was metabolized twice as fast, and 6-monoacetylmorphine, the first breakdown product of heroin, is four times more potent, yielding a combined effect of both chemicals and a drug with very high physical dependence capacity, in fact, actually one of the most addictive drugs ever used in medicine. Governments, under pressure, were compelled to introduce laws on dangerous drugs, and responsible companies stopped using and supplying opiates. In the U.S. opium was eventually placed under federal restrictions by the Harrison Act of 1914. Finally, in 1929 the Rockefeller Foundation and government agencies began a research program to find nonaddictive morphine-like chemicals and analgesics."



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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: PDU]
    #1713187 -

we (the responsibles) are fucked forever, we were born into slavery and our thirst for altered consiousness waives our right to compassion. simultaneously a large well-trained/equiped/brainwashed force is constantly mobilized to prevent our crusade from ever getting off the ground. beware, my friends, the road less traveled is oft gaurded and traped, your only trustable ally is yourself and you won't wake up. all we have is our mind and our cause. they have the money, they have the power. only pray they don't take you alive.

but i'm tired, i'll be back tommorow and lots more constuctive.

i still have hope. peace.


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fine. do what you want, but i'm drinking the water.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: trippinlizard]
    #1713685 -

ok, after sleep this is what i think, we would need to apeal to the court system to overturn the ruling that says the Native American Church cannot use peyote in its rituals, we would have to simulataeously show that responsible and spiritual use of mescaline and other entheogens is harmless, we would also have to prove that it is a worthwhile experience. once we broke down the barrier about entheogens in religion, it could become a solid defense if caught, but if it didn't work, i wouldn't expect to see anything be mary jane and maybe shrooms legalized in my lifetime. i think any drug besides something absolutely safe would never be legalized and that most religious entheogen use could see an upswing in support and symapathy by the new age/ex-hippie group once we went public.
we would need a good lawyer, a large grassroots base and would have to focus on old and present religious groups or individuals that use entheogens for religious purposes otherwise uh-uh, not this century.

oh, and you all would most likely have to come out of the proverbial closet in terms of entheogen use which could be dangeous with that big mutt the DEA watching your everymove.

if the religious freedom argument worked then we could work on recreational use of entheogens and then perhaps even strech our fingers towards the grial of the "right to get high" or the right to alter one's consiousness as one sees fit" it would be a long hard road and chances are _we_ would not reap the final rewards, but the impications would be huge...


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fine. do what you want, but i'm drinking the water.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: trippinlizard]
    #1713844 -

I think that destroying all the plants will never happen. The DEA has to be fucking idiots (well we know that is true). I mean how much would something like that cost? Plus how can they go and do that in other countries. I could see them trying to do it in the US but like Canada and over in Europe...give me a break. Plus i dont think that would solve anything because people would still grow shit and sell shit. What morons.

I agree with the above post about religious freedom and all that. It really is a natural right to do what you want to your body. It is also true that it is religious. But you know what would happen? People would all just decalre their religion so they could do drugs and they could get away with it because nobody can really deny you of your religion. That could be a potential probelm. I think you make up your own religion anyway. Being brought up in a religion and being told what to believe all your life is very bad in my opinion. This is not the topic of this thread so i will not continue with that thought.

I think that the only hope there is to legalize any drug lies in the responcible and recreational users. These are the people that do not kill people and do other crimes (at least i hope not), that make drugs look bad. Like I said before, the people against the drugs will only tell what bad things happen "tonight somebody OD'd on crack...", "this person was shot..."

i still dont think all drugs could become legal. Well maybe if they made them all legal then people would not need to make anymore and do makeshift ones. The main drugs are really marijuana, LSD, mushrooms, cocain, opium, heroin and then there are new drugs like e, foxy and all those things. I guess DMT could be a main drug. If the main drugs were legalized and nothing else then i think most people would be happy.


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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1714151 -

crazycanadian said:
I think that destroying all the plants will never happen. The DEA has to be fucking idiots (well we know that is true). I mean how much would something like that cost? Plus how can they go and do that in other countries. I could see them trying to do it in the US but like Canada and over in Europe...give me a break. Plus i dont think that would solve anything because people would still grow shit and sell shit. What morons.

I agree with the above post about religious freedom and all that. It really is a natural right to do what you want to your body. It is also true that it is religious. But you know what would happen? People would all just decalre their religion so they could do drugs and they could get away with it because nobody can really deny you of your religion. That could be a potential probelm. I think you make up your own religion anyway. Being brought up in a religion and being told what to believe all your life is very bad in my opinion. This is not the topic of this thread so i will not continue with that thought.

I think that the only hope there is to legalize any drug lies in the responcible and recreational users. These are the people that do not kill people and do other crimes (at least i hope not), that make drugs look bad. Like I said before, the people against the drugs will only tell what bad things happen "tonight somebody OD'd on crack...", "this person was shot..."

i still dont think all drugs could become legal. Well maybe if they made them all legal then people would not need to make anymore and do makeshift ones. The main drugs are really marijuana, LSD, mushrooms, cocain, opium, heroin and then there are new drugs like e, foxy and all those things. I guess DMT could be a main drug. If the main drugs were legalized and nothing else then i think most people would be happy.





well...The DEA has power over the world. It doesnt matter if we dont agree with them, if we think they dont have the right to cause extinctions, or lock up our growers...it doesnt matter. We have absolutely no stance against them, they do what they want, and we can whine and bitch so they'll MAYBE have a press conference to falsely justify their doing's with the same old rhetoric. Hey...they can spray south america's coca plants, villages, food crops....hell, the whole damn place with toxic chemicals, but what the hell are villagers going to do? Theyre going to die...thats all, big deal to the DEA, they're fighting God's fight for bush to make the world poison free. So yeah...They'll genetically fuck our plants one day so we cant use them, im sure. Its too bad. The genetics will live on in University biology labs...maybe.

Like I said before, the people against the drugs will only tell what bad things happen "tonight somebody OD'd on crack...", "this person was shot..."
Just like the good guys only say the good things, we're both biased, it takes a true intellect to overcome one's personal bias..and their just arnt enough around.

I disagree with your main list of drugs..the argument is kinda All or none, right? In my mind the main drugs would be Marijuana and Hashish, cocaine, heroin, ecstacy, LSD, mushrooms, salvia...other entheogen extracts and plants...and im not sure what else.

Arguing "Itll never happen unless a drug is totally safe" or something to that effect is pointless sadly, because so many drugs that are legal (pharmaceuticals) carry great dangers. hell...even the allergy medication on TV say risks include "anal bleeding, liver hemmorage or death" and stuff like that...

We dont only need religious freedom...we need personal freedom. ive got a thread going on about how, i think...the best way for a system of legal drugs would work in OTD. (not that im in favor of total legalization)

I think...an excellent and absolutely must listen to interview ont he topic is Pharmacoetheon by Johnathan OTT. especially part 2, Downloadable here.
He is someone who makes a good argument without bias.


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: crazycanadian]
    #1714197 -

Quote:
crazycanadian said:
I think that destroying all the plants will never happen. The DEA has to be fucking idiots (well we know that is true). I mean how much would something like that cost? Plus how can they go and do that in other countries. I could see them trying to do it in the US but like Canada and over in Europe...give me a break. Plus i dont think that would solve anything because people would still grow shit and sell shit. What morons.


You should look at this: http://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=81 Also do a search for 'spraying coca plants' or similar. This has been happening for a while now. I also read somwhere else that the DEA has teams of scientists (who are funded by our taxes) working on finding a virus or something like it that can destroy whole species of plants, they want to create a bioweapon that will kill all cannabis plants worldwide.

Edited by lateralus (07/14/03 12:53 PM)

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Re: Responcible and recreational Entheogen users? [Re: lateralus]
    #1714426 -

...and people wonder why we have such passion in opposition to the "good guys"


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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