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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1661866 -

alex: Incidentally, going back to your previous argument, could you explain a way round the fact that most consumers are too busy living their own lives to research every product they buy in depth and then campaign for ecologically sound alternatives? Do you still believe in abandoning the fate of the environment to the hope that suddenly one day everyone on earth will turn into an eco-warrior? Or do you think we should do something else while we wait for that day?


See the problem with your argument, is that youarent attacking capitalism, you are targeting western consumers. The only problem in that instance is education, not capitalism. capitalism as a system does not inherently propel people to be apathetic and ignorant, but culture does.


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1662049 -

I don't think education is the point. Even if you educate people they are too busy living their own lives to do endless research into every product in the marketplace and then campaign for ecologically sound alternatives. It's never going to happen is it. The planet will be utterly destroyed long before that happens. In addition it's a bit much expecting people with barely enough money to feed and clothe themselves or their children to spend money saving the whales or a peice of land 4000 miles away. Sure people care about the environment but they also care about putting food on the table for their children.

We have to look at what is destroying the environment directly and stop that at source. If environmental protection means a cut in profits for capitalist corporations then a cut in profits it has to be. The trouble is the corporations don't want to hear this.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1662185 -

so whats your point, that people dont care about the environment? then regardless of the system, the environment will be destroyed if it can be causally related to human mentality rather than economic system.

do you think that there is no pollution in communist countries? countires devoid of corporations?


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1662216 -

Cornholio writes:

I?m interested in a good debate where people don?t exaggerate or misrepresent the facts.

As am I. Are you implying I have either exaggerated or misrepresented facts? Care to point out an example?

I am only aware of restrictions on how businesses function. What restrictions are there on ?personal? freedoms (after a person goes home from work)?

In Communism, there is no freedom to make your living how you choose. One must first make a living (i.e. survive) before one can exercise the freedom to smoke a joint.

Monopolies are generally very large, and wealthy corporations. They have the power to run massive and lengthy advertising campaigns that new entrants can't afford....

So what? Are you saying advertising prevents new entrants to a given field? That is incorrect. Please name for us a single company whose ads you have seen who has no competitors.

...they can survive long periods of predatory pricing...

Define "predatory", please. If you mean they are able to sell their products with tiny profit margins, does not the consumer win in such a scenario?

... they enjoy economies of scale that new entrants don?t...

And lack the nimbleness and flexibility of smaller companies. Note that it wasn't IBM who sparked the home computer industry, but Apple.

...they have substantial brand name recognition...

So what? How much brand recognition did MacDonald's have in the Fifties? At the time they started, the big name in the US burger market was A&W.

...they?ve been around long enough to become ultra efficient in their production and distribution methods...

So what? None of the techniques they use to increase efficiency are trade secrets. Any company can employ the same methods, or even improve on them.

... they can force suppliers and distributors to sign exclusivity agreements ensuring they don?t supply/distribute to new competitors?

Incorrect. They can't force anyone to do anything. If a supplier or distributor believes it is in his best interest to sign such an agreement, he may choose to do so, but is not forced to do so.

Microsoft, Standard Oil, US Steel?

Microsoft is not now and never has been a monopoly. Standard Oil was never a monopoly, although it did hold a pre-eminent position for over a decade. US Steel likewise was never a monopoly. Between 1901 and 1911 prices charged by U.S. Steel fell by an average of 11 per cent. Yet, its percentage of the nation's steel production declined precipitously from 61.6 per cent in 1901 to 39.9 per cent by 1920. Even at the height of U.S. Steel's "market domination" (not the same as a monopoly), its competitors flourished. By 1911 there were over 80 firms in direct competition with U.S. Steel and producing over 60 per cent of all iron and steel products sold in the United States.

You say ?historical facts? support laissez faire economics? Any examples?

Thousands. However, at the moment we are discussing your assertion that monopolies are possible without government assistance. They are not. There has never been a monopoly that endured for any length of time without government intervention. That is the meaning of my comment regarding history.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1663175 -

so whats your point, that people dont care about the environment?

No, people care about the environment. But there's a difference between caring about the environment and going to work for 12 hours and then coming home and spending your evenings researching the history of every product you buy, the business linked to it and campaigning for ecologically sound alternatives. Not to mention having the money to pay for ecologically sound alternatives when you've 3 kids to feed.

then regardless of the system, the environment will be destroyed if it can be causally related to human mentality rather than economic system.

Not if you tell the corporations doing the polluting that the directors will go to jail for thirty years.

do you think that there is no pollution in communist countries?

No I don't think that at all. The point is it's a fantasy to rely on the consumer to control pollution when there's a massive oil refinery down the road spewing tons of pollutants into the sea every day. You go to the refinery first and tell them to stop polluting.

countires devoid of corporations?

Does it matter who owns the oil refinery? If it's polluting, go to the source and make them stop. Don't depend on some mythical eco-warrior consumer stopping it for you.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Phred]
    #1663201 -

Quote:
Capitalism is destroying the earth...

Incorrect. No one can deny that environmental damage is greatest in the totalitarian states. Pollution, poaching, species extinction, strip-mining, deforestation, etc. -- all are present to a much higher degree in China, the ex-USSR and ex-Soviet Bloc countries than in the Western nations.



I agree! I wasn't saying that other systems are better. :wink:

Quote:
Government interventions are always necessary to keep capitalism on track.

Please provide a reasoned argument as to why this is so. Thank you.



For example... Enron and other companies that were "too creative" in their accounting. The lack of control caused a disaster. Wasn't a government intervention necessary in that case?

Quote:
...results in much higher consumption...

And this is bad because...?

...and makes alternative energy unprofitable...

Why is it good for people (especially the poorer people in a society) to pay inflated prices for one of their essentials (i.e. energy)?




This is good for the environment and it seems that people are worried enough to support such politics. If the energy was cheap then the people would consume more and at the end pay the same amount of money for it. The only gain would be pollution & unnecessary luxury. (Not to mention related wars & terrorism. )
Current rate of nature exploataion & consumption will have to stop sooner or later and will result in a big economic crisis. Do you think that economy can grow in infinite?   

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: zeronio]
    #1663517 -

alex- so you are arguing that governments should regulate industrial pollution? yes?

that still has nothing to do with capitalism right? capitalism can still function with intense government regulation.

sure, its not pure (un-regulated) capitalism, but it can function. what you are arguing is not a structural problem with capitalism, you are arguing against governmental corruption/weakness.


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1664148 -

The fundamental goal of capitalism is short-term profits. To maximise profits you assume infinite natural resources. If you start running your business on the basis of "We'll spend 6 million on environmental controls so our children will breathe clean air", or "Hey, lets leave that part of the rain forest for our children" some other business comes along, doesn't spend anything on the environment, maximises it's profits and puts you out of business. The goals of capitalism and the long term survival of the human race are mutually exclusive. Human beings want clean seas, corporations maximise profit by making seas dirty. What way is there around this?

Will government control really work with multi-national business who often have more power than most governments? Is some piss-poor government in Africa really going to tell a multi-billion dollar corporation what to do?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1664187 -

alex, this thread is titled, "Capitalism or Communism? Which is better?". you have illustrated a problem that occurs when democracy and capitalism are combined with apathy, selfishness, and lack of foresight; that being pollution.

pollution may be a problem in a capitalist system, but as pinkshark pointed out, pollution in people's republics has consistantly been significantly worse.

so when we ask, "Capitalism or Communism?" and we judge by environmental criteria, it would be rational to say "Capitalism".

there can be pollution problems in capitalism. they can be minimized through environmental laws, which if fair, consistant, and effective, should and could be passed, if not for some of the flaws of our democracy.

the problem of pollution in capitalism can be minimized, depending on the political climate. this is not so of the controlled economy, with it's widespread inefficiency and corruption.

you think businesses are bad polluters now? go to the former soviet bloc and see what happens when the government runs them.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1664218 -

I'll go with whichever system has the greatest chance of putting human beings and the environment before short-term profit. If there's a new form of capitalism that could be developed to address this then fine.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1664245 -

both human beings and the environment fair worse under socialism than capitalism, so there's your answer.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1664620 -

Wouldn't be so confident about that. The socialist new deal policies of 30's america were in many ways closer to communism than Stalin's dictatorship. Human beings did a lot better under that than the rampant capitalism of the 20's. Rampant capitalism which resulted in the catastrophe of 1929 leading directly to the second world war. The socialist policies followed in the UK and US post-war, up until Reagan, were a lot better for human beings, certainly far better than the rampant capitalism now being pursued. I don't think there's any real difference in the environment because you pursue communism or capitalism. It's more to do with the atitude of the people running the oil refineries.

Also very difficult to compare the soviet union and america as far as pollution as they were at very different stages in their economic development. By 1914 America was already close to being the most powerful country on earth, Russia was still feudal with little or no industry. To go from that to one of the most powerful industrial nations on earth within a few decades is going to have a big impact on the environment.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1666141 -

wrong again alex,

the second world war was caused by crazy nazis. DONT LOOK ANY DEEPER!


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1666217 -

Actually Germany was gettin smacked left and right by Britain and France. They wanted money from Germany for WW1. They took all of Germany's colonies in other countries. Then Hitler rose to power because Germans wanted a leader to bring their country back to the top.

After WW2 United States wanted to make sure that STALIN wouldn't do the same thing that Hitler did. Hitler took over countries, one by one after World War 1. Europe was in deep shit after WW2 and Stalin wanted that shit badly. If US didn't send money to BRITAIN, FRANCE, AND GERMANY then Europe would be a part of USSR and USSR would still be here.

So it was not only the nazis who started the war, other countries contributed by taking all the money from Germany, leaving them up for grabs. If this happend in US im sure some crazy fucker would take power.


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: downforpot]
    #1666223 -

nope. crazy nazis from outerspace.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1666227 -

make a smarter comment.


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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