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Anonymous

laissez faire capitalism
    #1325883 - 02/22/03 06:10 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

over in SPS, we were talking about welfare, and the topic of the government's place in the market came up. a certain user was arguing that the government should have no place in the market. i didn't agree at first, but after reading his posts over there, i'm not really sure what i think about this now. maybe, ideally, the government should have no place in the market. i'm just not sure how it'd work though. anyway... what do you all think of this?


Edited by Anonymous (02/22/03 06:18 AM)


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OfflineMeph
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Re: lassiez faire capitalism [Re: ]
    #1325886 - 02/22/03 06:11 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

*laissez

:smirk:


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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: ]
    #1325924 - 02/22/03 06:44 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

A good place to start would be by reviewing the great debate .

Lots of well thought out commentary from both sides of the fence.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: ]
    #1325936 - 02/22/03 07:01 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I don't trust the government very much, but I trust corporations even less. Someone's got to regulate them, and if it takes the government to do it, then so be it.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: ]
    #1325997 - 02/22/03 07:42 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I think that right now, the US is as close to perfect as can be in this situation. You can't have businesses completely unregulated, or you'll run into the same problems TR ran into in the early 1900s. And you can't have over-regulated businesses or people will being to lose their jobs to compliant robots, like in Europe.


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Anonymous

Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1326000 - 02/22/03 07:45 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

well, i think that in laissez faire, the government can still create and enforce environmental laws, safety regulations, and such.

the government would exist only to protect individuals from force or fraud. laws protecting the environment and requiring decent safety conditions fall into that duty. in this protective role, the government would still need police, and i'm not sure how they'd pay for that without there being taxes.

if the government stayed out of the market, could we also keep the market out of the government?

i think that it's interesting that on both sides of this spectrum (laissez faire capitalism vs. pure communism) the government is, for the most part, non existant. people get along, do their thing, and there's no need for government. it seems that the only difference is that in laissez faire, you can own private property, while in communism, everyone shares everything. i actually think either one would be nice. i like that laissez faire has its roots in natural law and acknowledges and protects individuals and individuality. at the same time, it seems that it is built on self-interest and competition, which i don't think are the best of human qualities. i like how in communism, there is cooperation as opposed to competition, and sharing as opposed to owning.

we could argue about how to build our utopia all century....


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: ]
    #1326015 - 02/22/03 07:59 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laissez faire capitalism vs. pure communism



The similarity between these two is that both are idealistic and naive, having little to do with reality.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: ]
    #1326076 - 02/22/03 08:43 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

if i'm walking around and i see a guy standing with a shovel, and he says, "hey... i'll pay you four dollars an hour to dig a hole" and i say, "sure thing, hand me the shovel"... that is illegal. because of minimum wage laws, a consensual agreement is illegal. that just doesn't seem right. now, instead of paying me 4 bucks to dig the hole, he's got to do it himself, because he doesn't have $5.15. he really didn't want to get all dirty and didn't mind parting with 4 bucks. i like digging holes and i could have really used the 4 dollars. oh well.

next thing you know, it's going to be illegal to do volunteer work.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: ]
    #1326091 - 02/22/03 08:56 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

next thing you know, it's going to be illegal to do volunteer work.



Actually... the Salvation Army will try to help out people like the homeless by training them with a saleable skill and providing food and shelter while having these people repair/refurbish donated items (which they sell to obtain funding). Since the money the Salvation Army was giving to these people was not up to the minimum wage, a few years ago the organization was held criminally liable for violation of labor laws. Needless to say, this has lessened their effectiveness by restricting the number of people the organization can help to get back on their feet. They have to take in less people because they can't afford to pay them.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: ]
    #1326134 - 02/22/03 09:22 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

mushmaster writes:

in laissez faire, the government can still create and enforce environmental laws, safety regulations, and such.

Correct. Not only can they, they must.

i'm not sure how they'd pay for that without there being taxes.

Remember that if the government were to restrict itself strictly to cops, courts, and military, and that the military would be restricted to national defense rather than international adventurism, the governmental budget would be a tiny fraction of what it is today.

Several people have come up with ways of financing these functions through non-coercive means -- lotteries, bequeathments, and contract insurance are the ones I can recall offhand. If such non-coercive methods are insufficient, a small import tax could be levied on goods manufactured outside the country. No one is forced to buy imported goods, after all. If I needed a pot, for example, I would have many options available to me that don't require me to pay tax -- buy a domestically made pot, borrow a pot, rent a pot, trade something else I own for a pot, make my own pot.

if the government stayed out of the market, could we also keep the market out of the government?

Indeed we could. Why would lobbyists need to exist? It would no longer be possible to bribe politicians for special favors for one business over another, or for one entire business sector over another. Oh, I guess there would still be people trying to influence who got the contract for the next courthouse, or the next load of uniforms for the army, or who got appointed the next police chief. But that's about it.

i think that it's interesting that on both sides of this spectrum (laissez faire capitalism vs. pure communism) the government is, for the most part, non existant.

Not true in communism. The government is necessarily inextricably involved in every aspect of your everyday existence, since all property and all means of production are owned by the State. I believe you are confusing communism with anarchy.

i like how in communism, there is cooperation as opposed to competition, and sharing as opposed to owning.

The problem is that this "cooperation" is forced, not voluntary. And how does one share a house, a suit, a toothbrush? "Okay, here's the deal -- Juan gets the house on Monday, I get it Tuesday, Sonya gets it Wednesday..." Where do these people live while waiting for their day?

Further, the problem with "sharing" is that no one looks after anything -- the classic "tragedy of the commons" dilemma. As others have said before, the best illustration of communist "sharing" in real life is the public restroom. It is no accident that pollution in communist countries is so astonishingly much higher than in quasi-capitalist ones.

pinky


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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1326137 - 02/22/03 09:25 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

The similarity between these two is that both are idealistic and naive, having little to do with reality.

Au contraire. In fact, Laissez-faire Capitalism is the ONLY system which recognizes reality and is based on reality. Communism, on the other hand, ignores reality, which is why it cannot exist for long.

pinky



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #1326143 - 02/22/03 09:30 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

So it's realistic to assume that businesses will treat employees fairly and be make sure not to harm the environment too much without being required to do so? If only I had your optimistic outlook on human nature...


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (02/22/03 09:31 AM)


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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1326154 - 02/22/03 09:36 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

So it's realistic to assume that businesses will treat employees fairly...

If the employees feel their contract with their employee is being broken, they are free to sue their employer, or to change jobs.

... and be make sure not to harm the environment too much without being required to do so?

Re-read what I said about the necessity of laws regarding pollution. It was in my second post in the thread.

pinky


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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #1326164 - 02/22/03 09:44 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

My point is that if one business can get away with something like grossly underpaying their employees and hiring illegal immigrants, the others will follow suit because it saves them money. That's what it all comes down to. Most companies will do just about anything they can get away with to increase profit, even if it means screwing over their employees.


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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1326174 - 02/22/03 09:52 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

My point is that if one business can get away with something like grossly underpaying their employees and hiring illegal immigrants, the others will follow suit because it saves them money.

You might want to re-think that statement. If what you said were true, then in today's economy of mandatory minimum-wage laws, no non-unionized company would pay anything more than minimum wage. Yet that is clearly not the case.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #1326178 - 02/22/03 09:55 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Not true in communism. The government is necessarily inextricably involved in every aspect of your everyday existence, since all property and all means of production are owned by the State. I believe you are confusing communism with anarchy

i'm talking about after the "dictatorship of the proletariat phase"... where the state "withers and dies"... in which people continue to share everything, taking what the need and giving what they can, all voluntarily. "communist" nations in the world have never been able to get past the "dictatorship of the proletariat" phase in the transition to communism... i don't think it's much of a mystery as to why.

i think that small communes are workable. it takes a group of people very dedicated and commited to communist ideals to have a succesful commune. everyone has to do their part. history has shown that it's just not possible to move to pure communism with large populations of people.

even within a laissez faire society (which is actually workable in large populations), a group of people could get together and form a commune somewhere if they wanted...

that way, there could be communism for the people that wanted it, and laissez faire for those that didn't... yes, i think that would work.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #1326182 - 02/22/03 09:59 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Well, jobs that require a college degree need to give extra incentive to work there. I'm talking about unskilled labor. The kind of jobs that only require a GED, if that, although I would also like to point out that even in high-tech software companies, employers are hiring more and more employees from India because they don't have to pay them as much.


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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: ]
    #1326184 - 02/22/03 10:02 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

the problem with large populations under communism and small ones peaked my interest a few monthes ago.

I came up with an idea that was sort of like a bastard child of feudalism and communism (sound simpossible, i know).

but what if there were a ruling tree in a communist country. The labor group would be small, say...50-150 people max, everyone knows every. several are related. Each of the has a captain who participates in a larger ruling council, or perhaps a regional one which in turn puts up another captian for a higher ruling council. This solves the problem of apathetic masses in a place like russia or china since in these small groups there would be a peer pressure to get work done in order to aquire commodities, which would be dol dout by the ruling councils.

so or instant there may be a region where nearly all of the labor groups are farmers. They are rationed to keep whatever they need and can use from their crops while the ruling council desides what to do with the excess. Perhaps they would send all the wheat from the labor groups who farm it to labor groups who would produce flour. or distribute other foodstuffs such as potatoes directly to manufacturing labor groups. It would be the job of the ruling councils, in short, to make sure everyone is fed, clothed, warm, dry and entertained on their day off.

So...i think i got my point across... i've seen there are several people in this thread who're smarter than i am, i'm hoping some one could poke some holes in my idea so i can see it's flaws.


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Edited by zandorf (02/22/03 10:05 AM)


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: ]
    #1326206 - 02/22/03 10:21 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

even within a laissez faire society (which is actually workable in large populations), a group of people could get together and form a commune somewhere if they wanted...

that way, there could be communism for the people that wanted it, and laissez faire for those that didn't... yes, i think that would work.



Ah Liberty, freedom to choose your own lifestyle. Other than that fucking slavery compromise, this is really how the U.S. started out...


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: laissez faire capitalism [Re: Evolving]
    #1326228 - 02/22/03 10:35 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

To bad you're not free to choose what substances to put in your body.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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