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OfflineComponent
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Registered: 05/31/02
Posts: 216
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...
    #1115833 - 12/06/02 01:00 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

...


Edited by Component (05/10/08 03:34 PM)


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Component]
    #1116147 - 12/06/02 02:41 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I think it was designed to secure the wealth of a small group.
It makes money nessisary for survival, thereby making it more important than survival. It also forces us to work unessiarily for things that used to be free. And in doing that we bathe the politicians in wealth and luxry.

The govt is the middle man that makes all the profits.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisibleooo
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Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 23
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Component]
    #1116268 - 12/06/02 04:01 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

anarchist faq = worth a read.

proponents of anarchism often support: non-capitalist free markets, direct democracy, decentralization, local co-ops, loose federation of co-ops/collectives, grassroots organization, voluntary association, working class struggle. socalism without the state.

opposed to: statism, capitalism, republics (degenerate democracy), centralized production, central planning, atomization of humanity.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Component]
    #1116331 - 12/06/02 05:45 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

I think we'd all like to be Richie Rich but I know at least on this board if you were Richie Rich, you'd feel sorry for others in the nation/world who don't get to live your illustriously majestic lifestyle.



Wrong. I've worked hard for what I have and have no "sorry" feelings for those who don't.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1116396 - 12/06/02 07:24 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

Wrong. I've worked hard for what I have and have no "sorry" feelings for those who don't




But some people don't work hard at all and they are rich. Others work very hard to make others rich, while they themselves stay poor....

If you managed to work hard, succeed and 'earn' your wealth, then I'm sure there's no problem with that.

I feel sorry for the folks who work in walmart, or any other billionaire company who pays it's workers shit. I mean, come on. Even if every one in the country had a PhD, there would still be a menial labour jobs to do. Someone would have to do them.



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Component]
    #1116404 - 12/06/02 07:43 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Component writes:

I am having trouble understanding how Democracy & Capitalism mix.

Democracy is not necessarily required in order for Capitalism to exist. As a matter of fact, pure Democracy is antithetical to Capitalism because Capitalism requires freedom in order to exist, and pure Democracy has nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with coercion.

...we all compete with one another for money.

Not quite accurate. That statement implies that there is a fixed amount of wealth; that in order for one to prosper another must be deprived. This is not the case.

We have everything we need in this world (foodwise) on an objective basis...

Who is this "we" to whom you refer? The Collective?

...and capitalism stifles many of us to work jobs for the 'man' we don't really want in order to feed ourselves and our families.

Human existence requires human effort. If you don't want to work for "the man", become self-employed. No one is stopping you from doing so.

I am tired of struggling through life and say haven't we had enough of this crap.

Billions of humans have said the same throughout history, and the majority of those who said it didn't live in a Capitalist Democracy. Life is a struggle regardless of the politico-economic system under which you live. Granted, it is LESS of a struggle in a Capitalist society than any other, but it is still not a bed of roses.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: BleaK]
    #1116406 - 12/06/02 07:50 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Bleak writes:

It makes money nessisary for survival, thereby making it more important than survival.

Money is nothing more than concretized human effort. ALL human existence depends on human effort; one cannot survive without expending effort. All that is left to determine is WHOSE effort supports WHOSE existence.

It also forces us to work unessiarily for things that used to be free.

Example, please.

And in doing that we bathe the politicians in wealth and luxry.
The govt is the middle man that makes all the profits.


That is just one of the many problems with Democracy -- the more coercion politicians exert, the more they are rewarded financially. This is not the case with Laissez-faire Capitalism.


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: ooo]
    #1116410 - 12/06/02 08:01 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

proponents of anarchism often support: non-capitalist free markets, direct democracy, decentralization, local co-ops, loose federation of co-ops/collectives, grassroots organization, voluntary association, working class struggle. socalism without the state.

Not quite accurate. Collectivists who CALL themselves Anarchists (at least the ones who wrote that website) profess to believe in all those things. In actual fact those people are just another sub-sect of the Collectivist cult. They claim to abhor government and to support freedom, but their vision of an ideal society has no place for individual freedom -- everything is decided by majority vote of The Collective. The only substantive difference between them and Marxists is that the size of their governing organs is smaller -- in Marxism The State is nationwide, in the form of anarchism described at that website it is maybe only village-wide or county-wide.

Evolving once posted a couple of links to sites set up by Free-market Anarchists. The comments I made about the "anarchists" above do NOT apply to Free-market Anarchists.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1116415 - 12/06/02 08:09 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

carbonhoots writes:

But some people don't work hard at all and they are rich.

True. SOME don't.

Others work very hard to make others rich, while they themselves stay poor....

Also true. SOME do stay poor, or at least relatively poor. What's your point?

If you managed to work hard, succeed and 'earn' your wealth, then I'm sure there's no problem with that.

I'm glad to hear you say that. Unfortunately there are many, many posters to this board who refuse to believe (or at least refuse to admit) that is possible for someone to become wealthy without screwing other people over. To them the very fact that an individual has a net worth of a million dollars or more is proof that he is a scumbag.

Even if every one in the country had a PhD, there would still be a menial labour jobs to do. Someone would have to do them.

True. What's your point?

pinky



--------------------


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: BleaK]
    #1116530 - 12/06/02 10:30 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)


I think it was designed to secure the wealth of a small group.

Pure capitalism is not designed at all. It is actually not even a system. Pure
capitalism is allowing people to buy whatever they want, sell whatever they
want, build whatever they want, and do whatever they want.


It makes money nessisary for survival, thereby making it more important than survival.


Money is a representation of the value of resources. Resources(food, shelter,
etc..) are necessary for survival. In order to obtain these resources that you
need to survive, you need to put forth an effort to get them. Whether you
raise your own food and live in the wilderness(admittedly, kind of hard to do in
today's world), or if you work to get money and then spend your money on the
necessary resources, I don't care. Do whatever you want to do. That is the
essence of capitalism.


It also forces us to work unessiarily for things that used to be free. And in doing that we bathe the politicians in wealth and luxry.


Things that used to be free? Oh, I assume you are referring to this idyllic dream
that anarchists seem to have about Man's origins, where resources were
plentiful, and everybody lived in peace and harmony. NEWS FLASH! Today, there
are so many people on this earth, that we can no longer harvest resources
left and right without affecting our fellow man.


The govt is the middle man that makes all the profits.


Now this I can agree with.


RandalFlagg



Edited by RandalFlagg (12/06/02 10:55 AM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #1116547 - 12/06/02 10:36 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I was going to respond to Component's post, but you seem to have said
pretty much the same stuff I would have said, so I don't think I will
bother.

RandalFlagg


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OfflineAcacia
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1116654 - 12/06/02 11:28 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

NRA FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #1116683 - 12/06/02 11:40 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

It also forces us to work unessiarily for things that used to be free.

Example Please?


I heard a good example of this from a guy who was on welfare who said if all the land hadn't been handed over to private ownership he could get a patch of land, grow his own food and wouldn't need welfare.

That's one pretty simple example.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1116874 - 12/06/02 12:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I heard a good example of this from a guy who was on welfare who said if all the land hadn't been handed over to private ownership he could get a patch of land, grow his own food and wouldn't need welfare.

That "example" doesn't address the claim that today one "must work uneccesarily in order to obtain things that once were free." As Randall Flagg points out:

Resources(food, shelter, etc..) are necessary for survival. In order to obtain these resources that you need to survive, you need to put forth an effort to get them.

-- i.e. one must WORK.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #1116911 - 12/06/02 12:58 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

one must WORK.



*** gasp *** No, that's not fair!!!


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #1117207 - 12/06/02 02:50 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

That "example" doesn't address the claim that today one "must work uneccesarily in order to obtain things that once were free."

Eh? Of course it does. If the guy had land to grow his own food why would he work for a boss to buy food? Apart from maybe the cost of seed the food would be completly free if he had land to grow his own.

i.e. one must WORK.

That's what the guy wants to do. Unfortunately someone else "owns" the land.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleooo
Stranger
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 23
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Phred]
    #1117245 - 12/06/02 03:06 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

They claim to abhor government and to support freedom, but their vision of an ideal society has no place for individual freedom -- everything is decided by majority vote of The Collective.

Wrong. Majority vote is not a decision-making method preferred by anarchists. Majority vote is only utiltized when absolutely necessary, if that.

The only substantive difference between them and Marxists is that the size of their governing organs is smaller.

Wrong. Marxists and anarchists have entirely different courses of action and entirely different destinations. But I do not expect some internet Randoid as yourself to know the difference (::cough:: blinded by ideology ::cough::)

In actual fact those people are just another sub-sect of the Collectivist cult.

As opposed to your Ayn Rand sexually-repressed superman cult?

Check your private messages for my invitation.

The Iron Fist Behind the Invisible Hand


Edited by ooo (12/06/02 03:15 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: ooo]
    #1117265 - 12/06/02 03:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

As opposed to your Ayn Rand sexually-repressed superman cult?

Ouch!  :laugh:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1117520 - 12/06/02 04:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)


That "example" doesn't address the claim that today one "must work uneccesarily in order to obtain things that once were free."


Eh? Of course it does. If the guy had land to grow his own food why would he work for a boss to buy food? Apart from maybe the cost of seed the food would be completly free if he had land to grow his own.


So we should seize land from people who legally own and obtain it, and give it to
people who have done nothing to earn it?

Socialism again..tisk tisk...

If this guy wants a plot of land to grow food on, tell him to get a job, buy some
land, and do it.


RandalFlagg




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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Democracy & Capitalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1117547 - 12/06/02 04:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Randal: "Oh Ayn, you objectivist hottie!!"
Ayn: "Oh Randal, do me!! Oh!!!"
Randal: "Suck on my Fountainhead, you little slut"
Ayn: "MMmmm.. Mmmm... Tastes so good.."


RandalFlagg


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