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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1658234 -

for instance, if people started having a greater concern for oil consumption and engine emmisions, they'd start buying smaller, more efficient cars.

And what if the consumers are too busy living their lives, or simply don't have the interest to educate themselves about the myriad products available, precisely how they affect the environment and then campaign for ecologically sound alternatives?

What happens then?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1658334 -

then they buy things like gas-guzzling cars, enormous houses with huge lawns, etc.

people are poorly informed and apathetic, and that's where the problem lies.

it's not evil corporations pushing these products on people. people want SUVs. they want big houses. they want factory-farmed meat and sweatshop-made clothing. and you can't blame it all on advertizing. supply conforms to demand.

tell you what... go start up a business which sells ecologically sound and socially consious products that no one wants or will pay for. no amount of advertising will keep you from going under very quickly.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1658550 -

Well everyone on earth isn't going to turn into an eco-warrior tomorrow. Putting the responsibility on the consumer isn't going to work. So we can forget about that idea.

The only option with a chance of working is to go to the source and punish the corporations for polluting the environment. Not with meaningless slaps on the wrists - make the directors personally liable to long jail sentences. That's the only way anything is going to change.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1658689 -

As far as I am aware, this is a meaningless discussion since there has never been a valid communist country. The people in China and Russia used the communist language to fool people and gain power, but that was the only use those people had for it. The moment they were in power, the idea of communism was instantly subverted to the retention of power by those same people.

The one guy was right, human's are inherantly greedy (it seems like) and once money is gone the only thing to be greedy for is power. That's why rich people go into politics, and some people just dont give a fig about money in the first place and go right to power.

The problem inherent in communism is not the greed of man, though - it is the idea that one person who produces a lot will give up almost all he produces to people who do not produce anything or as little as possible. It would work, perhaps, in an isolated community where survival of the community depends on everybody working together, but otherwise I think it would serve to merely diminish the zest of building somthing (business, inventions, etc.) because you know the bulk of your work will be absorbed by the community. Wanting to keep a portion of what you produce is not necessarily greed, but willingly giving it away is perhaps to much to expect of the human race right now.

As far as capitalism goes, the consumer will choose, but supposedly the government will push things forward for the good of the people, NOT FOR THE PROFIT OR CONVENIENCE OF BUSINESS! Obviously, for the good of the people has little to do with how the American governemnt operates, because they don't do anything for the good of the people (in ANY regard, rights, ecology, limits on busienss) until the people are in the streets screaming, "It would be good if you did this or else!"

Only when the screaming angry mobs gather does our government act on behalf of the people. If I am wrong in this assumption, please correct me, but I cannot think of a single thing the American government has done willingly and pre-emptively. So, neither system, is perfect, but atb least a democracy has a constitution that has at least some power, and more importantly a democracy has anegative feedback form of popular power where when the people do start screaming they are at least marginally listened to instead of being gunned down.

That does not preclude a communist government from having a constitution, but as I said there has never been a true communist government or nation anyway, so we have no comparison to make.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1658917 -

Quote:
cornholio: that was boring.
I dont care for your arcane linguistic terms, they serve no purpose in this argument, and only detract from your point.

Sorry.  That post was intended for someone interested in logic.

Quote:
all of your replies were inneffectual, and you ignore truth just to point out your boring lameness.

A statement like that means nothing without backup.  Hell, I can just say that too.  ?Your statement was ineffectual.?  But now I?ll back my statement up ? the reason your statement was ineffectual is because you didn?t support it.  You just made a claim and left the reader hanging.  And just because you find logic boring doesn?t make it invalid.

Quote:
all of your replies revolve around the idea that consumers are uneducated/apathetic. Which, of course you didnt mean to.....proves my point, consumers have all the power, if consumers were educated and cared about environmental issues, they would buy environmentally-sound products.

Actually, I completely agree with you here.  If consumers were educated and cared about environmental issues, they WOULD buy environmentally sound products.  But most of them have no idea what damage is being done by the goods and services they buy (hell, I have no clue which products are destroying the rainforests)

Quote:
but fuck that, you dont even need compassionate or educated consumers, you just need good marketing, if you can brainwash the public into thinking that eco-friendly products are cooler and better than non-eco-friendly products, then you can save the rainforest.

Again, I completely agree with you!  Doesn?t that prove the power is actually with the corporations and their marketing departments???

If you find logic boring, then forget about the above statements - I?ll appeal to your mode of arguing - I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG, SO THERE!!!  :lol:  (Do you like that better?) 


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: drfrei]
    #1658921 -

Thanks for bringing the discussion back on topic, drfrei. I totally agree with your arguments against communism, but I think the same arguments can also be applied against capitalism. You said:

Quote:
The problem inherent in communism is not the greed of man, though - it is the idea that one person who produces a lot will give up almost all he produces to people who do not produce anything or as little as possible.

Doesn?t this happen in capitalism? Factory workers (and most other workers for that matter) are making thousands of dollars worth of a product per hour and get compensated with a measly $10 or whatever per hour. Just about everything they produce goes to the corporation.

Quote:
It would work, perhaps, in an isolated community where survival of the community depends on everybody working together, but otherwise I think it would serve to merely diminish the zest of building somthing (business, inventions, etc.) because you know the bulk of your work will be absorbed by the community.

The same is true in a capitalist society. Engineers are also paid by the hour, and the patents they develop automatically go to the corporation. What is their motivation to be creative when the company is the one profiting from their creativeness?

Quote:
Wanting to keep a portion of what you produce is not necessarily greed, but willingly giving it away is perhaps too much to expect of the human race right now.

Again, by now you see that unless you?re the owner of a company, everything you produce goes to the company, and you only get to keep a measly hourly wage. So I wouldn?t say it?s too much to expect, I?d say it?s exactly what?s happening. Wouldn?t you agree?


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1658981 -

Quote:
What is their motivation to be creative when the company is the one profiting from their creativeness?


1. A raise.
2. A promotion.
3. Job satisfaction.
4. Personal pride.

I think 1 & 2 are what you were looking for though.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1659065 -

Cornholio writes:

Factory workers (and most other workers for that matter) are making thousands of dollars worth of a product per hour and get compensated with a measly $10 or whatever per hour.

But they can't make (and sell) thousands of dollars worth of product per hour without the factory. A blacksmith working with his own bellows forge and anvil is free to sell all ten of the horseshoes he makes in a day and keep all the money from those sales, but if he decides instead to work in a factory where the machinery purchased by the factory owner allows him to make a thousand horseshoes a day by pushing buttons and pulling levers, that's a different story.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: drfrei]
    #1659087 -

drfrei writes:

As far as I am aware, this is a meaningless discussion since there has never been a valid communist country.

Nor has there ever been a valid Laissez-faire Capitalist country. The original question was a hypothetical one, not a historical one.

As far as capitalism goes, the consumer will choose, but supposedly the government will push things forward for the good of the people, NOT FOR THE PROFIT OR CONVENIENCE OF BUSINESS!

In Capitalism, the government pushes nothing forward. All it does is protect the rights of its constituents by preventing people from initiating force against other people.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1659109 -

Cornholio writes:

Freedom has nothing to do with communism/capitalism.

Incorrect. Freedom has everything to do with communism/capitalism.

Incidentally, in the capitalist country of the US, we're slowly losing our freedom of speech, our freedom of reproductive choice, our freedom of privacy, our freedom to own guns... again, it's up to the people in charge.

The United States hasn't been Capitalist for a very long time now. Strictly speaking, it was NEVER Capitalist, although it was the closest thing to it the modern world has yet experienced.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1659125 -

Cornholio writes:

The problem I see with Laissez-faire Capitalism is that the most successful companies will eventually become monopolies.

Incorrect. There is no way for a company to become and stay a monopoly without government intervention unless it provides the most fantastic product at the most rock bottom price with great service, in which case -- who is harmed?

The "Myth of Monopolies" has been debunked countless times, several times in this forum alone. I really don't feel like running through the whole argument again. Do some reading.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Phred]
    #1659357 -

Quote:
they can't make (and sell) thousands of dollars worth of product per hour without the factory. A blacksmith working with his own bellows forge and anvil is free to sell all ten of the horseshoes he makes in a day and keep all the money from those sales, but if he decides instead to work in a factory where the machinery purchased by the factory owner allows him to make a thousand horseshoes a day by pushing buttons and pulling levers, that's a different story.

I agree with you.  But how many jobs are there in today's world where one can make a living working on his own?  A small handful, but not nearly enough for everyone.
Quote:
Freedom has everything to do with communism/capitalism.

Don't leave me hanging like that, brother!  I'm totally interested in how you came to that conclusion!  :eyemouth:

Edit: Doesn't anybody believe in backing their arguments up?  I already provided reasons why I DON'T think it matters.
Quote:
The "Myth of Monopolies" has been debunked countless times, several times in this forum alone. I really don't feel like running through the whole argument again. Do some reading.

Actually, I did quite a bit of reading before just before I made my post (articles that were both for and against laissez-faire).  Based on the arguments presented from both sides, I came to the conclusion that it can't work, for the reasons I already gave:  the companies that provides the most fantastic product at the most rock bottom price with great service will become monopolies.  Once they are monopolies, they will lose their incentive to continue doing the things that make them great.  As monopolies, they would have substantial power and there would be many barriers to entry preventing new companies from dethroning the monopolies. 

Perhaps you should do some more reading?  Look at articles from the other side too. 


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Edited by Cornholio (06/24/03 08:49 PM)

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1659398 -

Quote:
What is their motivation to be creative when the company is the one profiting from their creativeness?

1. A raise.
2. A promotion.
3. Job satisfaction.
4. Personal pride.

I think 1 & 2 are what you were looking for though.


I agree, but don't communist societies offer raises and promotions to the people that do better? (Honestly I don't know if they do or not)


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1659433 -

typically, communist countries offer promotions to people who fall in line with the government mandate. people who do what they are told.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1659478 -

The only option with a chance of working is to go to the source and punish the corporations for polluting the environment. Not with meaningless slaps on the wrists - make the directors personally liable to long jail sentences. That's the only way anything is going to change.

i'm afraid that political support for enacting tough environmental laws is pretty weak.

consumers can determine by their checkbook or their ballot the environmental consequences of the products they buy. as it stands right now, few people are doing either.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1660150 -

typically, communist countries offer promotions to people who fall in line with the government mandate. people who do what they are told.

Do you get promoted in corporations by not doing what you are told?? Surely a corporation is the ultimate example of dictatorship. One man at the top saying what goes.

Incidentally, going back to your previous argument, could you explain a way round the fact that most consumers are too busy living their own lives to research every product they buy in depth and then campaign for ecologically sound alternatives? Do you still believe in abandoning the fate of the environment to the hope that suddenly one day everyone on earth will turn into an eco-warrior? Or do you think we should do something else while we wait for that day?



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1660250 -

Quote:
does consumer X want to buy:

A- a burger
b- a burger that saves the world.

you be the judge.



Capitalism is destroying the earth and you gave a good example for that.
Big parts of rain forests are being cut down to gain pastures to provide meat for burgers. Advertisers may present the second option like a "burger that saves the world" but in fact it destroys it as much as the normal burger it just makes the customers feel better.
Another good example is propaganda about paper against plastic bags. People think that by using paper bags help the environment but in fact it's quite opposite. Production of paper bags consumes 10 times as much energy as the production of plastic. Not to mention the forests being cut down.
Government interventions are always necessary to keep capitalism on track. Remember the Enron & co. creative accounting? Another example is the energy consumption. The gas price in USA is about 50% of the price in Germany. The non regulated gas price results in much higher consumption and makes alternative energy unprofitable, while in the Germany the government keeps prices high with taxes to reduce consumption and to get money for investing in cleaner sources of energy.


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1660776 -

Cornholio writes:

But how many jobs are there in today's world where one can make a living working on his own? A small handful, but not nearly enough for everyone.

How would this be different under Communism? By definition, no one under Communism works on his own, or for himself.

Don't leave me hanging like that, brother! I'm totally interested in how you came to that conclusion!

It is self evident. The very definitions of Communism and Capitalism are based on personal freedom or the lack thereof. As has already been pointed out, under Laissez-faire Capitalism, every individual is left free to do whatever he chooses (always providing his actions don't forcibly prevent others from doing the same). Such is not the case under Communism.

the companies that provides the most fantastic product at the most rock bottom price with great service will become monopolies.

If any company has a chance to hold a monopoly, one who fills those requirements is the most likely to, yes.

Once they are monopolies, they will lose their incentive to continue doing the things that make them great.

If they choose to slack off, they will lose market share. This has been demonstrated countless times in the past.

As monopolies, they would have substantial power....

What "power"?

...and there would be many barriers to entry...

Such as?

... preventing new companies from dethroning the monopolies.

Name a single company that has ever achieved a monopoly for any length of time without government intervention. In a free market society, companies get "dethroned" all the time.

Edit: Doesn't anybody believe in backing their arguments up?

Backing up arguments means more than simply making vague assertions such as "they would have substantial power" and "there would be many barriers to entry".

Perhaps you should do some more reading? Look at articles from the other side too.

Over the last three decades I have read countless articles from both sides on the whole monopoly myth. The arguments from "the other side" simply don't stand the test of either logic or of historical fact.

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: zeronio]
    #1660780 -

zeronio writes:

Capitalism is destroying the earth...

Incorrect. No one can deny that environmental damage is greatest in the totalitarian states. Pollution, poaching, species extinction, strip-mining, deforestation, etc. -- all are present to a much higher degree in China, the ex-USSR and ex-Soviet Bloc countries than in the Western nations.

Big parts of rain forests are being cut down to gain pastures to provide meat for burgers.

Bigger parts of the rain forest are vanishing due to the slash and burn tactics employed by subsistence farmers.

Government interventions are always necessary to keep capitalism on track.

Please provide a reasoned argument as to why this is so. Thank you.

Another example is the energy consumption. The gas price in USA is about 50% of the price in Germany. The non regulated gas price ...

The gas price in the USA is not even close to being "non-regulated". The percentage of the price paid at the pump by the consumer that goes towards taxes is substantial. There are LESS taxes on it than in other countries, true, but that is only a matter of degree, not of principle.

...results in much higher consumption...

And this is bad because...?

...and makes alternative energy unprofitable...

Why is it good for people (especially the poorer people in a society) to pay inflated prices for one of their essentials (i.e. energy)?

pinky


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Phred]
    #1661549 -

Quote:
How would this be different under Communism? By definition, no one under Communism works on his own, or for himself.?

It wouldn?t be different. I?m not necessarily saying communism is better than capitalism, but I?m interested in a good debate where people don?t exaggerate or misrepresent the facts.

Quote:
It is self evident. The very definitions of Communism and Capitalism are based on personal freedom or the lack thereof.

I am only aware of restrictions on how businesses function. What restrictions are there on ?personal? freedoms (after a person goes home from work)?

Quote:
If they choose to slack off, they will lose market share. This has been demonstrated countless times in the past.

You mean like US Steel, Standard Oil, Microsoft? no wait? Government intervention was/is required for them
Quote:
What "power"? barriers to entry such as?

Since you say you are well educated on the topic, I assume you are asking this for the benefit of others on this board. Monopolies are generally very large, and wealthy corporations. They have the power to run massive and lengthy advertising campaigns that new entrants can't afford, they can survive long periods of predatory pricing, they enjoy economies of scale that new entrants don?t, they have substantial brand name recognition, they?ve been around long enough to become ultra efficient in their production and distribution methods (though as monopolies, they have no incentive to pass these savings onto their customers), they can force suppliers and distributors to sign exclusivity agreements ensuring they don?t supply/distribute to new competitors?

Quote:
Name a single company that has ever achieved a monopoly for any length of time without government intervention.

Microsoft, Standard Oil, US Steel?

Quote:
Over the last three decades I have read countless articles from both sides on the whole monopoly myth. The arguments from "the other side" simply don't stand the test of either logic or of historical fact.

Very logical arguments can (and have) been made for both sides. You say ?historical facts? support laissez faire economics? Any examples?


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