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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion?
    #1658893 - 06/24/03 05:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Is there people here that think logic is a tool of confusion? Or have averse feelings towards logic?
I never seem to be clear on this unless I ask. I know it probably sounds like a weird question, but just the other day, i was talking with my mom and sister (they're jehovah's witnesses) about god and the devil. Im not religious, but you can still talk about more philosophical issues using these characters nonetheless. And this was my intention, but of course, they found a way to turn the conversation towards why I should believe in god. Now, im not going to get into the details of the discussion, but my sister and my mother stated that things like 'logic' and 'philosophy' can be used as tools to confuse the 'religious mind', so to speak. At first this sorta baffled me, ya know. But then i noticed that when i talk with religious or real spiritual people on topics we disagree on, I seem to have had this subconscious feeling that i was'nt really defending anti-religious beliefs but was actually defending proper reasoning. The reason why people might think otherwise is because, i'll be so indirect about it and i'll talk as if I was anti-religious which just is'nt true. (sorry if i was rambling.)


[EDIT:When i speak of logic i usually mean informal logic or reasoning.]


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Edited by David_Scape (06/24/03 05:51 PM)


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Offlineshr00m
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1658901 - 06/24/03 05:53 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i think everything is confusing in one sense. religion. logic. etc.


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the only constant is change~ life goes on. so theres no point in staying back because you can always catch up. try,hope, and understand!


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1658925 - 06/24/03 06:01 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

this is the fundamental problem of philosophy. read the 4 dialogues leading up to socrates's death, (euthyphro, crito, .. um... the last one... and one other one...hmm..) he is executed because he embarrasses people who act like they know about virtue (how to define it). This is what philosophy is, why it is so great. philosophy doesn't have an agenda like being "anti-religious", however, people like to pretend like that's what's bothering them (that's sacrilegious!). religious types like to say such and such is right because god says so. Ignoring the problem of gods very selective attitide towards telling people what's right, what god says must be based on a maxim! all right, I've got to stop.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: shr00m]
    #1658926 - 06/24/03 06:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You misunderstand, what i meant is: Do you think that 'logical reasoning' is bad or misleading if you were to use it to (mostly)help dictate you beliefs.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1658933 - 06/24/03 06:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think so.

Logic has always provided me with a great deal of clarity.


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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Anonymous

Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1658944 - 06/24/03 06:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

emotion is driven by wants and desires... and holds no meaning in anything.

your mother and sister want to believe in god, it makes them happy

logic does not deal with wants and desires, it deals with facts.

its up to you what you want to base your life on.



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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1658957 - 06/24/03 06:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I may be wrong, but I always thought logic was a tool used to clear up confusion.

:confused:

Damn, now I'm confused! :grin: 


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Namaste.


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Offlineshr00m
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1658975 - 06/24/03 06:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

what i meant was....even if YOU used it to clarify something.
another person might see it totally different.

when I said "i think everything is confusing in one sense. religion. logic. etc. "

I didn't mean it literally.


--------------------
the only constant is change~ life goes on. so theres no point in staying back because you can always catch up. try,hope, and understand!


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: shr00m]
    #1658991 - 06/24/03 06:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Oh.
That's not bad point, actually.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: ]
    #1659007 - 06/24/03 06:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Emotion is driven by wants and desires... and holds no meaning in anything.




I understand the point of your post. But i wouldnt say it holds NO meaning. That's why i said to use logic 'to help dictate one's beliefs', because human's are inherently emotional-biased. There's no escaping that, i dont think.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Offlineshr00m
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1659186 - 06/24/03 07:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I do understand what you are saying though. I've asked my Christian parents and even my brothers why they believe in such a religion and why not use logical thinking and all.

well they told me that the mind is very dangerous and very hard for us to control.

in some ways so is religion itself. its very dangerous. if you dont believe it going straight to hell. also their is more then one religion. which one do we believe? and why is one right and the other is wrong? is it just me or is religion trying to control us from using our very own minds?


--------------------
the only constant is change~ life goes on. so theres no point in staying back because you can always catch up. try,hope, and understand!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1659228 - 06/24/03 07:36 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

David Scape writes:

But then i noticed that when i talk with religious or real spiritual people on topics we disagree on, I seem to have had this subconscious feeling that i was'nt really defending anti-religious beliefs but was actually defending proper reasoning.

Your feeling as you were speaking with those folks was accurate. Reason and faith are opposites. The faithful don't like to have their beliefs illuminated by reason, because it leads them to doubt their beliefs. Faith has nothing to do with reason and is in fact its nemesis, so there is literally no point trying to discuss faith logically. The faithful are not interested in logic or reason (at least when it is applied to their faith) and you do neither yourself nor them any favors by trying to apply them to discussions about faith. You will only frustrate yourself and piss them off.

pinky


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Offlineshr00m
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: Phred]
    #1659288 - 06/24/03 08:03 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

very true. most religious people are just not open minded at all. they do not care what you think. the only thing they care about is converting more people into "their" religion.


--------------------
the only constant is change~ life goes on. so theres no point in staying back because you can always catch up. try,hope, and understand!


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: shr00m]
    #1659309 - 06/24/03 08:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The graph should depict the solid line straight across IN PLACE of the asymptote.

Can you see how this is linked to the Fear of Being Alone?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineGixxer_boy
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1659659 - 06/24/03 10:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

"very true. most religious people are just not open minded at all. they do not care what you think. the only thing they care about is converting more people into "their" religion."

But by speaking in a way which you believe to be logical, you yourself are trying to convert them to your beliefs. I think this is what Mr. Scape was trying to say in the first place. If theres one thing I have noticed in life, everyone thinks they are the logical one, and everyone who disagrees with them is stupid and closed-minded. I myself am not a religious person, but I have read through most of the bible, Old and New testament, and have found that its alot of garbage surrounded by a few gems. I believe the same in everyone's idea of logic; they think they are right, and lots of the time I'm going to disagree. The only problem with religious people in my opinion is that they get all their idea's from someone else, instead of collecting their own. But then, I find that most people's belief's in logic just stem from what their culture believes is right. Hmm... I'm rambling again.


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"Why do women have breasts?"
......
....
...
..
.
"So you can have something to look at when you're talking to them!" -Peter Griffin


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Offlineshr00m
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: Gixxer_boy]
    #1659748 - 06/24/03 11:11 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

where did I mention that I am trying to convert them into my beliefs? I didnt say every religious person. i simply said "most". I dont disagree with them either. in one way. we are like them too. living our own beliefs. we are all the same.

i did make a mistake by saying "the only thing they care about is converting more people into "their" religion."

I meant to say that some religious people think that way. and some don't.


--------------------
the only constant is change~ life goes on. so theres no point in staying back because you can always catch up. try,hope, and understand!


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion? [Re: Gixxer_boy]
    #1660142 - 06/25/03 01:40 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I think this is what Mr. Scape was trying to say in the first place. If theres one thing I have noticed in life, everyone thinks they are the logical one, and everyone who disagrees with them is stupid and closed-minded.




That was'nt my original point. But it's still a good one. The bulk of my post was just to help people understand why i'd ask the question: Is logical reasoning a tool of confusion?

And to make it even clearer, the reason why i asked, is because i wanted to find a person who believes that the reasoning that 'skeptics' might refer to, or this book speaks of are pathological or misleading. When really, it's concepts like these that explainwhy any good argument for any particular belief are, infact, good.

Because im pretty sure it was things like this that they(my mom and sister) were refering to.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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