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OfflineLightningfractal
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Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool"....
    #2440752 - 03/16/04 09:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

money = government.

Money is the concept of greed in a physical form. As long as you have money, you can get whatever you want/need even if someone else might need it more, but does not have this money.

Money equals the government, which is greed as an empire. That's why the government produces money. There must be a catalyst, money enables greed. It provides a way to accumulate and hoard more than what you actually need.  Those who hate the government and yet love money are fundementally in error.

Money is nothing, yet everything, which is why people will kill and steal for it. Money has no real value, except maybe as toilet paper. It is greed, the root of all evil. It started the evil, and without it there would be no evil in the world. Money is like nothing else on Earth, and is a filthy concept.

:thumbdown:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440788 - 03/16/04 09:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It is greed, the root of all evil. It started the evil, and without it there would be no evil in the world. Money is like nothing else on Earth, and is a filthy concept.


I made the following point as I've said exactly in the past:




Money is an energy tool. It's like a hammer, it can either be used to build, or for destruction. It's neutral.
It boils down to the person's collective and total sum of moments, choices, decisions, influences, chosen paths, methods of thought, attitudes, upbringings, unique pysche, and so on; that determines HOW the person will use money.




Using  "LightningFractal-logic", all rocks are evil. Why? Because all over the world, people in wars and battles are throwing rocks at their enemies and buildings, thus causing damage and perpetuating negativity. So, if all rocks were eliminated off the planet earth, then Evil would cease to exist, or perhaps, at least dramatically drop? :smirk:




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440789 - 03/16/04 09:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Selfishness is the root of all problems.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleImOver18
FormerlyMr.Sleep

Registered: 10/05/03
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: psyka]
    #2440804 - 03/16/04 09:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Humans are the root of all evil.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: ImOver18]
    #2440812 - 03/16/04 09:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:

yeah, money's fine

its humans I'm not sure about


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2440824 - 03/16/04 09:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

money drives greedy and selfish people. It was created to. Money is not like a rock or a hammer.

Rocks do not drive people to do things, ('cept crack rocks.)

people do not kill and maim to accumulate more and more hammers either.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440857 - 03/16/04 09:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Money is fine... it is just a very abused system.
What is truly evil... is credit.
Invisible money.
Through credit one may have power over another.


--------------------


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440863 - 03/16/04 09:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

how can an inanimate object be "good" or "evil"?


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2440866 - 03/16/04 09:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I say we all go back to trade and cut the government out completely.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440877 - 03/16/04 09:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's a splendid idea.
I've got pair of old boots and a cheese grater.. want to trade for a sack of rice?


--------------------


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2440888 - 03/16/04 09:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

how can an inanimate object be "good" or "evil"?





It's the "root" of evil. What if I made a game where according to the "rules" everyone who played needed to kill 3 people a day?

Ok, the game itself, and the "rulebook", isn't evil right? It's just an inanimate object.

But the point is that it is NOT just an object like a rock or a hammer. It's a whole fucking game man, and money has it's rulebook too.

So, my game would be the ROOT, of 3 people getting killed, per player, per day.

And money is said to be the root of ALL EVIL, because money attempts to place a price upon everything.

Ponder.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2440890 - 03/16/04 09:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
how can an inanimate object be "good" or "evil"?



Good question.

Money is merely a medium of exchange. If we didn't have money we would all have to barter our goods and services. Imagine an auto worker trying to barter his services with the grocer. Imagine a construction worker trying to exchange work he's done on a new house for his daughter's prom dress...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2440892 - 03/16/04 09:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'll make it five sacks of rice if you toss in some of them shroomz! :lol:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Evolving]
    #2440897 - 03/16/04 09:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Selfishness is the root of all evil...go ahead...think about it. You'll find its true.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Evolving]
    #2440898 - 03/16/04 09:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Or imagine if everyone just provided their services free of charge, and everyone got what they needed for free. :gasp:
No..that would just be too equal.. and there would be no one on top of the pyramid.


--------------------


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440902 - 03/16/04 09:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
money drives greedy and selfish people. It was created to. Money is not like a rock or a hammer.

Rocks do not drive people to do things, ('cept crack rocks.)

people do not kill and maim to accumulate more and more hammers either.




He has a point. It's not just the person using the money that is inherently bad.

Rocks for instance, are just elements, slapped together. You can use them to kill people if you want, but that's not their purpose.

Now, goods and services can be bartered for. If everyone had a skill, or something to offer the world, then we could exist without money. Bartering is a natural currency.

Money's existence ruins this concept. It gives the ability for people to give something with no value and gain something with value. It facilitates sloth, greed, and violence as has been discussed. It's just a replacement for work, or skill.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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Offlinepeleg
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440909 - 03/16/04 09:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

selfish desire is evil, if you see someone in need you should do whatever is in your means to help that person, that where the idea of comunial living comes, sell everything, purchase property, set up camp and till the earth, evryone serving each other and not them selves, the love of money is the root of all evil, not the money it self,


--------------------
"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440925 - 03/16/04 09:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

so you're saying that if we abolished money as a medium and went back to bartering then people would stop stealing from eachother, ganging up on eachother, and using force to intimidate eachother into non- mutually amicable arrangements?


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Evolving]
    #2440942 - 03/16/04 09:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Imagine an auto worker trying to barter his services with the grocer. Imagine a construction worker trying to exchange work he's done on a new house for his daughter's prom dress... 




Who knows how the world would have evolved without money. It would be better without all of this nonsense of money, governments, nuclear weapons, all crap that much is certain.

better to have trees, rivers, grow your own food, clean air, clean water...

...fuck cars, fuck industry, fuck money...

..Garden of Eden :gd_icon:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: freddurgan]
    #2440947 - 03/16/04 09:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

barter doesn't work when I need a pickle and the pickle maker doesn't want any of my sausage...

with money, I can sell my sausage and buy pickles whenever I need them, instead of only being able to get them when I have the cucumbers the pickle maker needs.


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440966 - 03/16/04 10:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Who knows how the world would have evolved without money.



It did evolve without money for the longest time. However, specialization and a division of labor necessitated the development of a universally accepted medium of exchange.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #2440972 - 03/16/04 10:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Good points! true that, fuck barter too!

Shroomism said it best:

Quote:

Or imagine if everyone just provided their services free of charge, and everyone got what they needed for free.




let's do that then, everything has no value. Lose "value" as a concept entirely. :thumbup: :sun:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440975 - 03/16/04 10:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Money isn't the root of all evil. Advertising is.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440982 - 03/16/04 10:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Good points! true that, fuck barter too!

Shroomism said it best:

Quote:

Or imagine if everyone just provided their services free of charge, and everyone got what they needed for free.






Please! Lots of people have shitty jobs, and the only reason they do them is for the money. I have a friend in Sacramento who would quit his job at WalMart immediately if he didn't need the money.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2440983 - 03/16/04 10:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Three prime colors: red, blue, yellow.

Three prime evils: money, government, military


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2440987 - 03/16/04 10:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

To clarify my point lets imagine a society that functions somewhat like this.
You do your job, whatever it is that you do, based on what you choose to do.. and it is a job that in some way or another, benefits the community. When people need your service or product, they come to you, and get it for free.

Since you provide this service to the community, when you need food, or shoes, or whatever, you go to similar places and get them for free. If everyone is providing their services to the community for free, everyone gets stuff for free, just by contributing to the community. The only way it could possibly work is if everyone in the community was contributing to everyone else in the community. All your 'basic' needs like food, water, shelter, clothing and such, should be a given.. 'extras' could be acquired through the barter system or similar means of trade. It's pretty simple really.


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2440996 - 03/16/04 10:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

As I pointed out, there are certain jobs that no sane person would do if they didn't need the money. Try finding a proctologist who will do that job just out of the goodness of their heart.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441002 - 03/16/04 10:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Please! Lots of people have shitty jobs, and the only reason they do them is for the money. I have a friend in Sacramento who would quit his job at WalMart immediately if he didn't need the money.





So we abolish money, give everyone whatever they want out of Walmart for free, and set up a new way of doing things.

Of course such a change would involve a lot! You could not just remove money and expect things to stay the same, only better.

We would need an entire makeover of the way we as human beings do things. But it would be worth it and insane things like plants and fungi being illegal would NEVER happen again.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2441015 - 03/16/04 10:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Of course such a change would involve a lot! You could not just remove money and expect things to stay the same, only better.



Face it. There's some jobs that nobody would want to do if they didn't get paid. Garbage man, proctologist, plumber, etc. And on what basis are you making your claim that things could only get better? I see them getting a lot worse.

Quote:

We would need an entire makeover of the way we as human beings do things. But it would be worth it and insane things like plants and fungi being illegal would NEVER happen again.



How can you possibly make a correlation between a lack of currency and the legality of drugs?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441016 - 03/16/04 10:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
As I pointed out, there are certain jobs that no sane person would do if they didn't need the money.




There is absolutely no shortage of insane people in this world.

Quote:

Try finding a proctologist who will do that job just out of the goodness of their heart.




I'm sure you could find a couple. As long as their are services which need to be provided.. there will be people willing to do them. Whether it is because they need the money to survive, or because they are getting free healthcare, food, clothes, shelter, etc because of it..or simply because they like to help other people. In the first case, most people working minimum wage dead end shithole jobs (which there are millions of) cannot afford to live on their own, pay for healthcare, pay for food, let alone all the other 'neccessities' for life in modern soceity. You give them everything they need to live well, and they will work happilly. It's better than working some shithole job all day just to afford to be in debt.


--------------------


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2441040 - 03/16/04 10:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

so you're saying that if we abolished money as a medium and went back to bartering then people would stop stealing from eachother, ganging up on eachother, and using force to intimidate eachother into non- mutually amicable arrangements?





Sort of, yes.

See, some people instinctively know that the monetary system is corrupt and screwing them.

When someone works hard all their life and yet dies poor, but some lucky asshole hits the lottery after sitting on his ass all his life and then continues to sit on his ass in style...

...people notice these types of things. then they decide to roll armored cars, rob banks, or sell crack.

They feel that it's just a game, and that it's not a fair game, so why should they be fair?

Why should some bullshit McDonalds executive get paid millions while the ones who actually cook and sell the food can't even afford to eat there?

Why is money bad? I mean come on!! It's a fucking terrible idea, and like was said it's a means for fat slobs to sit on their asses while someone else works!!

Fuck having a value system at all.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441043 - 03/16/04 10:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"To clarify my point lets imagine a society that functions somewhat like this.
You do your job, whatever it is that you do, based on what you choose to do.. and it is a job that in some way or another, benefits the community. When people need your service or product, they come to you, and get it for free.

Since you provide this service to the community, when you need food, or shoes, or whatever, you go to similar places and get them for free. If everyone is providing their services to the community for free, everyone gets stuff for free, just by contributing to the community. The only way it could possibly work is if everyone in the community was contributing to everyone else in the community. All your 'basic' needs like food, water, shelter, clothing and such, should be a given.. 'extras' could be acquired through the barter system or similar means of trade. It's pretty simple really. "

Simple but impossible. Commune living has been tried, and heck, I'll even say that in certain situations with smaller communities, and with specific people, it works great!

however, widespread? no way man. people like me would ruin it for the rest, and I'll even concede that point.

It's not that I'm a worthless pile of crap, I'm just lazy. My dream is to do nothing, and if it was possible for me to do nothing yet still live comfortably?

Not sayin I'd never do ANYTHING, but there's no way I'd hold a steady job. Task-based random work -- dig a ditch, design a bridge, and tomorrow, babysit these kids and then go kill dinner? that'd work. but generally I'd be sitting around taking all of ya'lls weed and trying to figure out a way to extrude tastycakes DIRECTLY into my mouth.

And there's people much worse than I am.. I'll own up to the fact I'm lazy, and it's not because I think I'm owed anything by anyone and it's not because I think I deserve to not have to work.. I just dislike it but work anyway. And I'd only take what I really needed to survive, plus as I said above all the weed I can find.. there's greedy people out there that would take much more than that, just so they would have more than anyone else, just so they would feel important, and they'd lord that over everyone else..

and then we've basically already progressed away from communism and took the first step back to where we are. One person would take all the things, take all the power, and fux0r it all up.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2441046 - 03/16/04 10:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It's just the cast(sp?) system evolved. There are still peasants and kings and heiarchies of wealth.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441057 - 03/16/04 10:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And on what basis are you making your claim that things could only get better?




I'm not saying that at all, re-read what i said. It's a bad tasting medicine, but the longer we wait, the greater the initial damage will be. We should dump the whole stinking system and take the consequences.


Quote:


How can you possibly make a correlation between a lack of currency and the legality of drugs?




Not just lack of currency, lack of government too. No rules just right, like Outback Steakhouse.


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2441063 - 03/16/04 10:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

nah I think the idea of money was nice at first - its just mankind's unfortunate drive to COMPETE that totally fucked this up and turned money into the biggest force on this planet.

Money, in my opinion, causes and effects more stuff on this planet than anything else currently, and I think its grown totally out of our control, which means hopefully it should DIE!

DIE, MONEY! DIE!

VEE MUST KEEEEL FRANKENSTEIN!


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2441068 - 03/16/04 10:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This is understandable. But let's say a system was in place whereby you could not receive such free services if you did not contribute to the community. No one said anything about a steady job, just that you benefit the community.

People that abused and manipulated the system, and did not contribute to the community, would be banished. A service-to-other community cannot properly function with service-to-self individuals running around, corrupting the system.

Service-to-self citizens would have to form their own community, where they could lie and cheat and steal from each other to their heart's content. While the service-to-other community would be everyone helping each other. It does not work any other way, the two groups would have to be identified and isolated.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441087 - 03/16/04 10:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

But let's say a system was in place whereby you could not receive such free services if you did not contribute to the community.




Bums would get up and start working!! Good idea!!


Quote:

Service-to-self citizens would have to form their own community, where they could lie and cheat and steal from each other to their heart's content. While the service-to-other community would be everyone helping each other. It does not work any other way, the two groups would have to be identified and isolated.




There would not be "service to self" people in the absence of a monetary system. just like there are no poker players in the absence of playing cards.


Money is the root of all evil, just admit it people.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441093 - 03/16/04 10:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

and what would all the "banished" do for food? rob the unbanished?


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441099 - 03/16/04 10:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
As I pointed out, there are certain jobs that no sane person would do if they didn't need the money.




There is absolutely no shortage of insane people in this world.



There is an even bigger supply of lazy people.

Quote:

Quote:

Try finding a proctologist who will do that job just out of the goodness of their heart.




I'm sure you could find a couple. As long as their are services which need to be provided.. there will be people willing to do them.



The question is: Will there be enough? I highly doubt it.

Quote:

Whether it is because they need the money to survive, or because they are getting free healthcare, food, clothes, shelter, etc because of it..or simply because they like to help other people. In the first case, most people working minimum wage dead end shithole jobs (which there are millions of) cannot afford to live on their own, pay for healthcare, pay for food, let alone all the other 'neccessities' for life in modern soceity. You give them everything they need to live well, and they will work happilly. It's better than working some shithole job all day just to afford to be in debt.



So you're saying they only get those benefits if they work? I suppose that might work out, but then they'd all try to get the easy jobs, instead of the ones that require more labor that might pay more. Also, certain jobs like doctors and lawyers require more rigorous education and training than others. What incentive would you give these people to spend all that extra time in graduate school?


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441125 - 03/16/04 10:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What incentive would you give these people to spend all that extra time in graduate school?




Maybe make graduate school a lot of fun. Put lots of beers and pussy there.


--------------------
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441130 - 03/16/04 10:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


and what would all the "banished" do for food? rob the unbanished?


No, they would be isolated from the unbanished. They could either hunt/forage/grow their own food, or rob other banished people.

There is absolutely no shortage of insane people in this world.


There is an even bigger supply of lazy people.


Let's determine.. what makes these people lazy? One could easily say the current system is what causes laziness. People aren't lazy when their survival depends on them not being lazy. When they realize that if they do not help the community, they do not eat, they will quickly get off their lazy ass.



I'm sure you could find a couple. As long as their are services which need to be provided.. there will be people willing to do them.


The question is: Will there be enough? I highly doubt it.


I highly think so. There will always be a demand for./.lets say burger flippers. Some people will do ANYTHING, as long as they can support themselves and.or their family by doing it. If there is a demand for a job, it should "pay" the person enough that they can live comfortably, regardless of if they are a brain surgeon, or a horse shit scooper.


So you're saying they only get those benefits if they work? I suppose that might work out, but then they'd all try to get the easy jobs, instead of the ones that require more labor that might pay more. Also, certain jobs like doctors and lawyers require more rigorous education and training than others. What incentive would you give these people to spend all that extra time in graduate school?


Yeah sure, some people would go for the easy jobs. But those wouldn't be highly respected positions in the community. Teachers, for example, would be very highly respected, as they teach the children of the future. Lawyers would not be needed in such a society, period. Doctors, there will always be people that want to become doctors, or healers, simply because that is their life calling, and they sincerely want to help people. This would effectively weed out the people that are just in it for the money and couldn't give two shits about their patients or helping people.


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441132 - 03/16/04 10:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There is an even bigger supply of lazy people.

Yeah, and that's why none of these utopian schemes are working. If you want a society that works, it must take advantage of selfishness and punish laziness.

Funny thing is that, in my experience, the people who push these utopias are often the most selfish and lazy.


--------------------
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2441133 - 03/16/04 10:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

What incentive would you give these people to spend all that extra time in graduate school?




Maybe make graduate school a lot of fun. Put lots of beers and pussy there.



That's what college is for. Graduate school is about lots of work and studying so you can make lots of money when you get out.


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441159 - 03/16/04 11:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
There is absolutely no shortage of insane people in this world.


There is an even bigger supply of lazy people.


Let's determine.. what makes these people lazy? One could easily say the current system is what causes laziness. People aren't lazy when their survival depends on them not being lazy. When they realize that if they do not help the community, they do not eat, they will quickly get off their lazy ass.



That's exactly what it's like under the current system(save for welfare recipients). People work because they need the money. And some jobs pay more because they're jobs that nobody wants to do, so you'd probably have to give people a greater reward for doing them.

Quote:



I'm sure you could find a couple. As long as their are services which need to be provided.. there will be people willing to do them.


The question is: Will there be enough? I highly doubt it.


I highly think so. There will always be a demand for./.lets say burger flippers. Some people will do ANYTHING, as long as they can support themselves and.or their family by doing it. If there is a demand for a job, it should "pay" the person enough that they can live comfortably, regardless of if they are a brain surgeon, or a horse shit scooper.



Are you going to give out the same reward for different kinds of work? That's one of the reasons why communism didn't work out.

Quote:


So you're saying they only get those benefits if they work? I suppose that might work out, but then they'd all try to get the easy jobs, instead of the ones that require more labor that might pay more. Also, certain jobs like doctors and lawyers require more rigorous education and training than others. What incentive would you give these people to spend all that extra time in graduate school?


Yeah sure, some people would go for the easy jobs. But those wouldn't be highly respected positions in the community. Teachers, for example, would be very highly respected, as they teach the children of the future. Lawyers would not be needed in such a society, period. Doctors, there will always be people that want to become doctors, or healers, simply because that is their life calling, and they sincerely want to help people. This will weed out the people that are just in it for the money.



Lawyers wouldn't be needed? As long as there's injustice in the world(don't tell me you think injustice can be eliminated entirely), there will be a need for a judicial system, and as long as there's a judicial system, there will be demand for lawyers.


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: muhurgle]
    #2441170 - 03/16/04 11:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

There is an even bigger supply of lazy people.

Yeah, and that's why none of these utopian schemes are working. If you want a society that works, it must take advantage of selfishness and punish laziness.

Funny thing is that, in my experience, the people who push these utopias are often the most selfish and lazy.





:yawn:

The world is on a self destruction course, already there are holes in the atmosphere, it now causes cancer to go outside in the sun, the rain forests are disappearing, thousands of species of animals are becoming extinct, the Earth is being exterminated.

We need a new plan, no matter what you think of the ones being suggested, or those of us suggesting them.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441198 - 03/16/04 11:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't understand about this banishing thing... suppose i'm banished and my brother isn't ? can he give me a gift of food? or is my brother punished for my selfishness by never being allowed to see me? can I get out of banishment by just pretending to be productive, or will I need to provide proof of my productivity to some productivity judgement scheme? can I buy my way out of banishment by offering sexual favors?


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2441199 - 03/16/04 11:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, if there are problems we must fix them. But while schemes like 'lets forget about money' or 'lets abolish property' may sound good in theory, they will always be exploited by selfish and lazy people. It's nice to be idealistic but it's better to be realistic.


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441209 - 03/16/04 11:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


That's exactly what it's like under the current system(save for welfare recipients). People work because they need the money. And some jobs pay more because they're jobs that nobody wants to do, so you'd probably have to give people a greater reward for doing them.


Yes this is a good point. But I partially disagree on the jobs that pay more because nobody wants to do them.. there's maybe a few jobs like that.. most of the jobs nobody wants to do pay shit.

But perhaps a greater reward could be established for 'noble' jobs, or 'unwanted' jobs, that would give people greater incentive to do them. But the main point being that we want to create a more balanced system.


Are you going to give out the same reward for different kinds of work? That's one of the reasons why communism didn't work out.


I don't know. First and foremost, everyone's basic needs should be automatically taken care of.. survival should not even be a concern. Food, water, shelter, clothes.. these are basic human rights which everyone should have equal access to regardless of their job. But perhaps you have a point in saying that different work should be rewarded differently. But we can't be paying football players 10 million dollars a season, and be giving the guy working on the electrical lines $10 an hour. All I'm asking for is a more balanced system. It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, just more so than it currently is. Improvement, however it can come.


Lawyers wouldn't be needed? As long as there's injustice in the world(don't tell me you think injustice can be eliminated entirely), there will be a need for a judicial system, and as long as there's a judicial system, there will be demand for lawyers.


Lawyers reputations exceeds them. I'm not saying that we don't need a judicial system, just that the judicial system we have right now..DOES NOT WORK. It's too bogged down in tradition and old ideas and outdated systems for it to function properly. Lawyers can use deceptions and cheat this system with fancy legal terms that no one understands and such. A better judicial system could be established, one that did not send away non-violent drug offenders to prison for 20 years, and murderers to jail for 3. Again, all I'm asking for is more balance. The current judicial system is FUCKED. If you got money or political influence, or a position of power, or any combination thereof, you can get off just about any charge. Justice?


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #2441226 - 03/16/04 11:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MikeOLogical said:
I don't understand about this banishing thing... suppose i'm banished and my brother isn't ? can he give me a gift of food? or is my brother punished for my selfishness by never being allowed to see me? can I get out of banishment by just pretending to be productive, or will I need to provide proof of my productivity to some productivity judgement scheme? can I buy my way out of banishment by offering sexual favors?




Sure he could give you a gift of food if that's what he wants to do... but say you were 'banished' from the community, you would not be allowed in that community unless you show that you will work towards the betterment of the community as a whole, so if he wanted to see you it would have to be outside the community. And I don't think there is anyway you can "pretend" to be productive. Productivity shows results, 99.9% of the time. It could easily be judged by non-biased, objective observers. I don't think sexual favors would buy your way out of banishment, just showing that you have intentions of helping others, and not just yourself, and following through with them.


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441231 - 03/16/04 11:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Lawyers reputations exceeds them. I'm not saying that we don't need a judicial system, just that the judicial system we have right now..DOES NOT WORK. It's too bogged down in tradition and old ideas and outdated systems for it to function properly. Lawyers can use deceptions and cheat this system with fancy legal terms that no one understands and such. A better judicial system could be established, one that did not send away non-violent drug offenders to prison for 20 years, and murderers to jail for 3. Again, all I'm asking for is more balance. The current judicial system is FUCKED. If you got money or political influence, or a position of power, or any combination thereof, you can get off just about any charge. Justice?



The problem isn't the judicial system, but rather the laws it has to uphold. As for lawyers and their "fancy legal terms," that's nonsense. The judge knows what those terms mean, and they'll have little effect on the jury. And I'm sick and tired of the demonization of lawyers. My dad's a lawyer, and he's never sent a drug user to jail or helped someone win a frivolous lawsuit. You know what he does? Environmental law. He files suit against corporations and individuals who violate environmental regulations, thus helping to protect and preserve our environment.


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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441263 - 03/16/04 11:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well more power to him then. I support his cause. I don't demonize all lawyers, just some.. sorry for generalizing and stereotyping, that was shortsighted and judgemental of me. But what about high priced lawyers that get obviously guilty people off of double murder charges on some bullshit doubletalk? :coughOJcough: and frivolous lawsuits.. like you said. I spilled hot coffee on myself so I am suing the coffee company for 10 billion dollars. That sort of thing.

But yes, the laws need to change.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441265 - 03/16/04 11:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

He files suit against corporations and individuals who violate environmental regulations, thus helping to protect and preserve our environment.




then i applaud him. What we don't need are millions of do nothing lawyers leeching off everyone elses pain and suffering.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441405 - 03/17/04 12:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

well then what about people whose intentions are toward the public good but who do no actual work, like the old lady on my block who walks up and down the street calling up enforcement on people who don't mow their lawns?

and what if my idea of supporting the public good is at odds with others, like if I want to beautify downtown with my artwork, but others refer to my artwork as "filthy graffiti"?

would I be banished then?

and just who would be in charge of banishing people anyway? how would you keep the person in charge of banishing people from just banishing anyone who he doesn't like or who doesn't pay some sort of tribute?

and who would defend the tiny community of non banished people when the banished masses attack all at once?


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #2441522 - 03/17/04 12:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That shit is sounding more and more like what we've already got.

Banishment to another area ain't gonna work.

In cultures where everyone pulls together for the benefit of the tribe, I believe that those who refuse to contribute are simply killed.


--------------------
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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442081 - 03/17/04 06:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

money drives greedy and selfish people.

You're on the right track. It's not Money that is the problem. It's GREEDY AND SELFISH people. Think about it, what do they use money FOR? They use money as a tool to get what they WANT; be it drugs, houses, cars, women, jewelry...
If you took away the tool we use to acquire objects and other items of desire, it doesn't matter. There will still be Selfish and Greedy People, and guess what? They will still covet all the same possessions.. surprise surprise!

Using your "logic", I can say that all cars, fancy houses, clothes, jewelry and desirable objects and things commonly coveted..are all evil, due to the fact that there are greedy and selfish people who feel the urge to splurge on all the aforementioned desirables. You know that doesn't make any sense, right?

By your "logic", food is evil because there are gluttonous people who die from malnutrition, obesity and poor dietary habits. Nevermind all the GOOD that food (or money) does in the world. It must be evil, just cuz, golly, there are people who aren't as fortunate as others insofar as to eat properly and maintain healthy habits. :smirk:

It was created to.

Oh? Money was created to drive greedy and selfish people? Where are you getting this from? Sources, please?

It's the "root" of evil.

Fallacious.

What if I made a game where according to the "rules" everyone who played needed to kill 3 people a day?

:rolleyes: Go on, make up your own game. :smirk:

Again, I will reiterate, there will always be selfish people who use money for negative reasons. That does not make MONEY, evil.

It is not money's fault that the individual chose to take the darker path of negativity in life and use it for the wrong reasons due the their individual upbringing and how they learned to deal with certain issues, and views derived from certain influences in their life.

The root is not money. The root lies within Mankind's unperfection.

Think.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2442778 - 03/17/04 11:58 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If you took away the tool we use to acquire objects and other items of desire, it doesn't matter. There will still be Selfish and Greedy People, and guess what? They will still covet all the same possessions.. surprise surprise!





The flaw in your argument is in that I do not suggest that we merely remove money, but also the entire system of placing "value" on objects and services.

If nothing has a "value" anymore, but simply is what it is, there would not exist the climate nescessary to cultivate any greed, or covetousness.

Money generally stops people, even rich people, from acquiring something they want at some point.(through lack of money)

This creates the opportunity to learn coverousness and greed. If everything got what they needed free of charge, and got to share all the luxuries available with everyone else, these evils would never have reason to arise. :gd_icon:


--------------------
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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442842 - 03/17/04 12:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So you believe that if all objects were 'equal in value'...selfishness and greediness would cease to exist in mankind?



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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2442862 - 03/17/04 12:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So you believe that if all objects were 'equal in value'...selfishness and greediness would cease to exist in mankind?





Not equal in value, but valueLESS. No concept of possessions.

Share everything , just as we once shared the land.


--------------------
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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442905 - 03/17/04 12:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

ther is no such thing as equal value... value is a result of individual judgement... for example, I value sticky nuggets.  I will pay $100 a quarter ounce for those stinky nuggets.  For me, the value of a quarter ounce of stinky nuggets is $100.  My brother doesn't like stinky nuggets, and won't pay a cent for them as they are useless to him... therefore the value of stinky nuggets to my brother is zero.

If my brother also liked stinky nuggets, and also valued them at $100, I might decide they are worth more to me, and offer the nugget dealer $110 for the same stinky nuggets, just so I could get them before my brother... does this make me greedy?  perhaps.  But if my desire for stinky nuggets is greater than my brothers, I will place a higher value on them than he does, they will be worth more to me, I wwill pay more, and as a result I will get them and he will not.

A third observer might look at the two of us together and say look there, that fat rich guy with all the stinky nuggets won't give any to his brother who has none... he is greedy and evil... as are his nuggets...

at which point I will burn those nuggets, as I'm about to do now :wink:


--------------------
We got Nothing!
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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #2442924 - 03/17/04 12:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If you could grow all the stinky nuggets you wanted to in the open with no penalty, again they would become valueless.

When i say "valueless" I don't mean you can't love them, I just mean that they are not a possession but a shared item.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442928 - 03/17/04 12:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Not equal in value, but valueLESS.
Oh, oh...Pardon moi. Explain to me how selfishness and greed would cease to exist if all objects were 'valueLESS'.

No concept of possessions.
Do you realize that although in theory and speculation, it may be easy and fun for you to play around with in your head; but in reality, it would be absurd? But, hey, let's say you ARE right; all you're really doing is furthering my point that the ROOT of the problem lies not within currency but within MANKIND. Thank you! :smile:

Share everything , just as we once shared the land.
What historical era are you referring to, exactly? Details and sources, please.



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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442936 - 03/17/04 12:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

ah, but the reality is, it is difficult and time consuming to grow stinky nuggets, and as a result they are highly prised and very valuable...

the term for objects with no value, at least here in America, is "garbage"... it is illegal to leave an item with no value on the sidewalk.

even water, which is abundant and falls from the sky, has value, and we do not share it willingly, we charge each other for it.


--------------------
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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2442943 - 03/17/04 12:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe the root of the problem lies not with mankind, but with a few certain men.

The ones that set up this game the way it is for us all to be forced to play.

Unless you wanna move by yourself into the wilderness, and then again, WHY SHOULD I BE THE ONE TO MOVE?

Why should I have to move like just another endangered species losing more and more of their natural habitat each year?

WHAT THE FUCK does mankind have against WILD NATURE anyway???

Of course we all shared the land at some point. Back when we didn't have any money!! When we were running around naked or wearing animal skins.

You look it up, no one is still alive from back then anyhow, so there is no real proof of anything from then.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442956 - 03/17/04 01:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I once thought that money was the root of all evil.

I have since changed my mind.

Money is only the expression of the root problem, which is human greed and the desire for power.

Without money, humans would still desire to have power over one another. Wars would still exist. Suffering would still be around.

Take away the concept of value in objects? I doubt such a thing could be done...but lets say it is done. Still people would desire power over one another for no other reason than it seems to be basic human instinct. Not confined to humans, either, as there are clear examples of power-struggle in the animal kingdom.

Money is not the root of the problem...it is only our "civilized" expression of the root.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442981 - 03/17/04 01:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

money is nothing more than a tangible manifestation of labor...

money=labor

in a valuless society, a bottle of water would have the same value as a puddle of rainwater... ignored would be the efforts of all the people who worked to collect, purify, bottle, and ship that water to your destination. without the money, the value that all these people added to that bottle of water would be lost, and those people would go unrewarded for their services.

a bottle of water ready to drink is worth more than a puddle of rainwater. A monetary system lets us decide what the difference in value is, very precisely.


--------------------
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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443004 - 03/17/04 01:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe the root of the problem lies not with mankind, but with a few certain men.

Correction:
It certainly does lie within a certain few types of people..that is, those who ABUSE the right.

The ones that set up this game the way it is for us all to be forced to play.

I'm assuming you have some people in mind, perhaps you learned in History class. Perhaps you would be willing to tell us?


Unless you wanna move by yourself into the wilderness, and then again, WHY SHOULD I BE THE ONE TO MOVE?

Ask yourself. You seem to be the one to desire a world without money and it's 'evil system'. Feel free to move to Africa and live in the wilderness. Join a tribe. Practice beating some drums. Dedicate your life to survival.

Why should I have to move like just another endangered species losing more and more of their natural habitat each year?

This is getting more and more off course. But to play along with your increasingly erroneous questions, if you wish to live in a world without all of rules as you are in today; that is what you must do. Sorry, but that's how it is. Oh, well of course, I suppose you could also just join the Insane Asylum and get your own free padded room with a stylish straight-jacket...You should fit in nicely. :smile:

WHAT THE FUCK does mankind have against WILD NATURE anyway???

Hmm?

Of course we all shared the land at some point. Back when we didn't have any money!! When we were running around naked or wearing animal skins.

Ah see, you fail to realize that although people live on the same land...they still have their own territories. It is instinctually natural for man to be territorial, whether without money or not.
Furthermore, did it ever occur to you, that in order to actually SHARE an object, it must be yours to begin with? Ahhhh...

You look it up, no one is still alive from back then anyhow, so there is no real proof of anything from then.

So with that 'reasoning', I can dismiss your previous "what about when we once shared the land" statement...  :smile2:

You still haven't explained to me how selfishness and greed would cease to exist if all objects were 'valueLESS'.



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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2443053 - 03/17/04 01:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

money is nothing more than a tangible manifestation of labor...

money=labor

in a valuless society, a bottle of water would have the same value as a puddle of rainwater... ignored would be the efforts of all the people who worked to collect, purify, bottle, and ship that water to your destination. without the money, the value that all these people added to that bottle of water would be lost, and those people would go unrewarded for their services.

a bottle of water ready to drink is worth more than a puddle of rainwater. A monetary system lets us decide what the difference in value is, very precisely.






In a valueless society there would be no "work" either. The act of building things, making products etc. etc. in a valueless society would be mere play.

I hope to see you there one day.

Quote:

You still haven't explained to me how selfishness and greed would cease to exist if all objects were 'valueLESS'.




That's easy, if nothing held any value, EXCEPT the TRUE value, which is, what enjoyment that actually comes from the item itself, there is then no greed.


--------------------
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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443073 - 03/17/04 01:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's easy, if nothing held any value, EXCEPT the TRUE value, which is, what enjoyment that actually comes from the item itself, there is then no greed.

Ah, but you see...there is STILL value...the 'enjoyment that actually comes from the item itself'. Hence, some people can still get greedy and selfish with the item.

NOW you see?



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Anonymous

Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443637 - 03/17/04 03:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

money = government.

i don't think so...

Money is the concept of greed in a physical form.

money is something that people use to facilitate exchange. without it we would be restricted to bartering for what we need. without it, there would still be just as much greed.

money is confusing to some people. all money is is currency. it's a standard medium of exchange. it doesn't need to be printed paper, and it doesn't need to produced by the government. currency has existed for ages. people have used gold dust, shells, stones, twists of tobacco, and other things as currency for ages. all it does is facilitate exchange.

Money equals the government, which is greed as an empire.

this does not logically follow. how are currency and government equatable?

to be more accurate:

government = force

That's why the government produces money. There must be a catalyst, money enables greed.

the government needn't produce money. left to their own devices, people will create currency systems on their own. this is because it is so helpful. money does not "enable" greed. it can exist and flourish without money at all.

It provides a way to accumulate and hoard more than what you actually need.

you can do that without using currency.

Those who hate the government and yet love money are fundementally in error.

why?

It is greed, the root of all evil. It started the evil, and without it there would be no evil in the world. Money is like nothing else on Earth, and is a filthy concept.

this entire post has been a whole bunch of unsupported assertions, one after the other.

HOW is currency equatable with government?

HOW does the use of currency in a society enable greed and hoarding that would otherwise not be possible?


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Anonymous

Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443647 - 03/17/04 03:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

money drives greedy and selfish people.

to be fair, it drives pretty much everyone...  :smirk:

It was created to.

HOW?


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Anonymous

Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443662 - 03/17/04 04:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I say we all go back to trade and cut the government out completely.

people did not create money because they wanted to give greedy people something to strive after.

they created it because barter is terribly inefficient and inconvenient. government needn't even create the currency. people will do it on their own.

if you want to outlaw currency and force people to barter only, that's going to require an extensive and repressive government.

some people are hopelessly confused by the concept of currency. i don't see why there are so many, but it really is troubling.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: ]
    #2443675 - 03/17/04 04:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'll be back.


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443701 - 03/17/04 04:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The flaw in your argument is in that I do not suggest that we merely remove money, but also the entire system of placing "value" on objects and services.

and how would you propose to do that?

goods and services are valuable. people want them. they need them. they are willing to exchange certain goods and services for other goods and services.

If nothing has a "value" anymore, but simply is what it is, there would not exist the climate nescessary to cultivate any greed, or covetousness.

but things do have value. if i am starving, food is of value to me. if i am cold, clothing is valuable. if i am thirsty, water is valuable. if i want to visit the shroomery, a computer and internet connection are valuable to me.

If everything got what they needed free of charge...

the thing is that in this world, meaning the real world that you, i, and everyone else exists in, things are NOT free. they must be created by productive human effort. a loaf of bread isn't free even if you didn't pay for it or work to produce it. someone else did.


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Anonymous

Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443705 - 03/17/04 04:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In a valueless society there would be no "work" either. The act of building things, making products etc. etc. in a valueless society would be mere play.

do you have a job?


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: ]
    #2444316 - 03/17/04 08:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Lightningfractal for God.

Put me in charge and there shall be paradise for all.


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