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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442928 - 03/17/04 12:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Not equal in value, but valueLESS.
Oh, oh...Pardon moi. Explain to me how selfishness and greed would cease to exist if all objects were 'valueLESS'.

No concept of possessions.
Do you realize that although in theory and speculation, it may be easy and fun for you to play around with in your head; but in reality, it would be absurd? But, hey, let's say you ARE right; all you're really doing is furthering my point that the ROOT of the problem lies not within currency but within MANKIND. Thank you! :smile:

Share everything , just as we once shared the land.
What historical era are you referring to, exactly? Details and sources, please.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
Doctor ofShroomology
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Registered: 01/31/04
Posts: 4,133
Loc: florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442936 - 03/17/04 12:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

ah, but the reality is, it is difficult and time consuming to grow stinky nuggets, and as a result they are highly prised and very valuable...

the term for objects with no value, at least here in America, is "garbage"... it is illegal to leave an item with no value on the sidewalk.

even water, which is abundant and falls from the sky, has value, and we do not share it willingly, we charge each other for it.


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We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
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Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2442943 - 03/17/04 12:58 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe the root of the problem lies not with mankind, but with a few certain men.

The ones that set up this game the way it is for us all to be forced to play.

Unless you wanna move by yourself into the wilderness, and then again, WHY SHOULD I BE THE ONE TO MOVE?

Why should I have to move like just another endangered species losing more and more of their natural habitat each year?

WHAT THE FUCK does mankind have against WILD NATURE anyway???

Of course we all shared the land at some point. Back when we didn't have any money!! When we were running around naked or wearing animal skins.

You look it up, no one is still alive from back then anyhow, so there is no real proof of anything from then.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,794
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442956 - 03/17/04 01:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I once thought that money was the root of all evil.

I have since changed my mind.

Money is only the expression of the root problem, which is human greed and the desire for power.

Without money, humans would still desire to have power over one another. Wars would still exist. Suffering would still be around.

Take away the concept of value in objects? I doubt such a thing could be done...but lets say it is done. Still people would desire power over one another for no other reason than it seems to be basic human instinct. Not confined to humans, either, as there are clear examples of power-struggle in the animal kingdom.

Money is not the root of the problem...it is only our "civilized" expression of the root.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442981 - 03/17/04 01:14 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

money is nothing more than a tangible manifestation of labor...

money=labor

in a valuless society, a bottle of water would have the same value as a puddle of rainwater... ignored would be the efforts of all the people who worked to collect, purify, bottle, and ship that water to your destination. without the money, the value that all these people added to that bottle of water would be lost, and those people would go unrewarded for their services.

a bottle of water ready to drink is worth more than a puddle of rainwater. A monetary system lets us decide what the difference in value is, very precisely.


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443004 - 03/17/04 01:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe the root of the problem lies not with mankind, but with a few certain men.

Correction:
It certainly does lie within a certain few types of people..that is, those who ABUSE the right.

The ones that set up this game the way it is for us all to be forced to play.

I'm assuming you have some people in mind, perhaps you learned in History class. Perhaps you would be willing to tell us?


Unless you wanna move by yourself into the wilderness, and then again, WHY SHOULD I BE THE ONE TO MOVE?

Ask yourself. You seem to be the one to desire a world without money and it's 'evil system'. Feel free to move to Africa and live in the wilderness. Join a tribe. Practice beating some drums. Dedicate your life to survival.

Why should I have to move like just another endangered species losing more and more of their natural habitat each year?

This is getting more and more off course. But to play along with your increasingly erroneous questions, if you wish to live in a world without all of rules as you are in today; that is what you must do. Sorry, but that's how it is. Oh, well of course, I suppose you could also just join the Insane Asylum and get your own free padded room with a stylish straight-jacket...You should fit in nicely. :smile:

WHAT THE FUCK does mankind have against WILD NATURE anyway???

Hmm?

Of course we all shared the land at some point. Back when we didn't have any money!! When we were running around naked or wearing animal skins.

Ah see, you fail to realize that although people live on the same land...they still have their own territories. It is instinctually natural for man to be territorial, whether without money or not.
Furthermore, did it ever occur to you, that in order to actually SHARE an object, it must be yours to begin with? Ahhhh...

You look it up, no one is still alive from back then anyhow, so there is no real proof of anything from then.

So with that 'reasoning', I can dismiss your previous "what about when we once shared the land" statement...  :smile2:

You still haven't explained to me how selfishness and greed would cease to exist if all objects were 'valueLESS'.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2443053 - 03/17/04 01:32 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

money is nothing more than a tangible manifestation of labor...

money=labor

in a valuless society, a bottle of water would have the same value as a puddle of rainwater... ignored would be the efforts of all the people who worked to collect, purify, bottle, and ship that water to your destination. without the money, the value that all these people added to that bottle of water would be lost, and those people would go unrewarded for their services.

a bottle of water ready to drink is worth more than a puddle of rainwater. A monetary system lets us decide what the difference in value is, very precisely.






In a valueless society there would be no "work" either. The act of building things, making products etc. etc. in a valueless society would be mere play.

I hope to see you there one day.

Quote:

You still haven't explained to me how selfishness and greed would cease to exist if all objects were 'valueLESS'.




That's easy, if nothing held any value, EXCEPT the TRUE value, which is, what enjoyment that actually comes from the item itself, there is then no greed.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443073 - 03/17/04 01:37 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

That's easy, if nothing held any value, EXCEPT the TRUE value, which is, what enjoyment that actually comes from the item itself, there is then no greed.

Ah, but you see...there is STILL value...the 'enjoyment that actually comes from the item itself'. Hence, some people can still get greedy and selfish with the item.

NOW you see?



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Anonymous

Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443637 - 03/17/04 03:56 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

money = government.

i don't think so...

Money is the concept of greed in a physical form.

money is something that people use to facilitate exchange. without it we would be restricted to bartering for what we need. without it, there would still be just as much greed.

money is confusing to some people. all money is is currency. it's a standard medium of exchange. it doesn't need to be printed paper, and it doesn't need to produced by the government. currency has existed for ages. people have used gold dust, shells, stones, twists of tobacco, and other things as currency for ages. all it does is facilitate exchange.

Money equals the government, which is greed as an empire.

this does not logically follow. how are currency and government equatable?

to be more accurate:

government = force

That's why the government produces money. There must be a catalyst, money enables greed.

the government needn't produce money. left to their own devices, people will create currency systems on their own. this is because it is so helpful. money does not "enable" greed. it can exist and flourish without money at all.

It provides a way to accumulate and hoard more than what you actually need.

you can do that without using currency.

Those who hate the government and yet love money are fundementally in error.

why?

It is greed, the root of all evil. It started the evil, and without it there would be no evil in the world. Money is like nothing else on Earth, and is a filthy concept.

this entire post has been a whole bunch of unsupported assertions, one after the other.

HOW is currency equatable with government?

HOW does the use of currency in a society enable greed and hoarding that would otherwise not be possible?


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Anonymous

Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443647 - 03/17/04 03:58 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

money drives greedy and selfish people.

to be fair, it drives pretty much everyone...  :smirk:

It was created to.

HOW?


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Anonymous

Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443662 - 03/17/04 04:01 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I say we all go back to trade and cut the government out completely.

people did not create money because they wanted to give greedy people something to strive after.

they created it because barter is terribly inefficient and inconvenient. government needn't even create the currency. people will do it on their own.

if you want to outlaw currency and force people to barter only, that's going to require an extensive and repressive government.

some people are hopelessly confused by the concept of currency. i don't see why there are so many, but it really is troubling.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: ]
    #2443675 - 03/17/04 04:04 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I'll be back.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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Anonymous

Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443701 - 03/17/04 04:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The flaw in your argument is in that I do not suggest that we merely remove money, but also the entire system of placing "value" on objects and services.

and how would you propose to do that?

goods and services are valuable. people want them. they need them. they are willing to exchange certain goods and services for other goods and services.

If nothing has a "value" anymore, but simply is what it is, there would not exist the climate nescessary to cultivate any greed, or covetousness.

but things do have value. if i am starving, food is of value to me. if i am cold, clothing is valuable. if i am thirsty, water is valuable. if i want to visit the shroomery, a computer and internet connection are valuable to me.

If everything got what they needed free of charge...

the thing is that in this world, meaning the real world that you, i, and everyone else exists in, things are NOT free. they must be created by productive human effort. a loaf of bread isn't free even if you didn't pay for it or work to produce it. someone else did.


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Anonymous

Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2443705 - 03/17/04 04:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

In a valueless society there would be no "work" either. The act of building things, making products etc. etc. in a valueless society would be mere play.

do you have a job?


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: ]
    #2444316 - 03/17/04 08:04 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Lightningfractal for God.

Put me in charge and there shall be paradise for all.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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