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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441130 - 03/16/04 10:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)


and what would all the "banished" do for food? rob the unbanished?


No, they would be isolated from the unbanished. They could either hunt/forage/grow their own food, or rob other banished people.

There is absolutely no shortage of insane people in this world.


There is an even bigger supply of lazy people.


Let's determine.. what makes these people lazy? One could easily say the current system is what causes laziness. People aren't lazy when their survival depends on them not being lazy. When they realize that if they do not help the community, they do not eat, they will quickly get off their lazy ass.



I'm sure you could find a couple. As long as their are services which need to be provided.. there will be people willing to do them.


The question is: Will there be enough? I highly doubt it.


I highly think so. There will always be a demand for./.lets say burger flippers. Some people will do ANYTHING, as long as they can support themselves and.or their family by doing it. If there is a demand for a job, it should "pay" the person enough that they can live comfortably, regardless of if they are a brain surgeon, or a horse shit scooper.


So you're saying they only get those benefits if they work? I suppose that might work out, but then they'd all try to get the easy jobs, instead of the ones that require more labor that might pay more. Also, certain jobs like doctors and lawyers require more rigorous education and training than others. What incentive would you give these people to spend all that extra time in graduate school?


Yeah sure, some people would go for the easy jobs. But those wouldn't be highly respected positions in the community. Teachers, for example, would be very highly respected, as they teach the children of the future. Lawyers would not be needed in such a society, period. Doctors, there will always be people that want to become doctors, or healers, simply because that is their life calling, and they sincerely want to help people. This would effectively weed out the people that are just in it for the money and couldn't give two shits about their patients or helping people.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441132 - 03/16/04 10:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

There is an even bigger supply of lazy people.

Yeah, and that's why none of these utopian schemes are working. If you want a society that works, it must take advantage of selfishness and punish laziness.

Funny thing is that, in my experience, the people who push these utopias are often the most selfish and lazy.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2441133 - 03/16/04 10:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

What incentive would you give these people to spend all that extra time in graduate school?




Maybe make graduate school a lot of fun. Put lots of beers and pussy there.



That's what college is for. Graduate school is about lots of work and studying so you can make lots of money when you get out.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441159 - 03/16/04 11:00 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
There is absolutely no shortage of insane people in this world.


There is an even bigger supply of lazy people.


Let's determine.. what makes these people lazy? One could easily say the current system is what causes laziness. People aren't lazy when their survival depends on them not being lazy. When they realize that if they do not help the community, they do not eat, they will quickly get off their lazy ass.



That's exactly what it's like under the current system(save for welfare recipients). People work because they need the money. And some jobs pay more because they're jobs that nobody wants to do, so you'd probably have to give people a greater reward for doing them.

Quote:



I'm sure you could find a couple. As long as their are services which need to be provided.. there will be people willing to do them.


The question is: Will there be enough? I highly doubt it.


I highly think so. There will always be a demand for./.lets say burger flippers. Some people will do ANYTHING, as long as they can support themselves and.or their family by doing it. If there is a demand for a job, it should "pay" the person enough that they can live comfortably, regardless of if they are a brain surgeon, or a horse shit scooper.



Are you going to give out the same reward for different kinds of work? That's one of the reasons why communism didn't work out.

Quote:


So you're saying they only get those benefits if they work? I suppose that might work out, but then they'd all try to get the easy jobs, instead of the ones that require more labor that might pay more. Also, certain jobs like doctors and lawyers require more rigorous education and training than others. What incentive would you give these people to spend all that extra time in graduate school?


Yeah sure, some people would go for the easy jobs. But those wouldn't be highly respected positions in the community. Teachers, for example, would be very highly respected, as they teach the children of the future. Lawyers would not be needed in such a society, period. Doctors, there will always be people that want to become doctors, or healers, simply because that is their life calling, and they sincerely want to help people. This will weed out the people that are just in it for the money.



Lawyers wouldn't be needed? As long as there's injustice in the world(don't tell me you think injustice can be eliminated entirely), there will be a need for a judicial system, and as long as there's a judicial system, there will be demand for lawyers.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: muhurgle]
    #2441170 - 03/16/04 11:01 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

There is an even bigger supply of lazy people.

Yeah, and that's why none of these utopian schemes are working. If you want a society that works, it must take advantage of selfishness and punish laziness.

Funny thing is that, in my experience, the people who push these utopias are often the most selfish and lazy.





:yawn:

The world is on a self destruction course, already there are holes in the atmosphere, it now causes cancer to go outside in the sun, the rain forests are disappearing, thousands of species of animals are becoming extinct, the Earth is being exterminated.

We need a new plan, no matter what you think of the ones being suggested, or those of us suggesting them.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441198 - 03/16/04 11:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I don't understand about this banishing thing... suppose i'm banished and my brother isn't ? can he give me a gift of food? or is my brother punished for my selfishness by never being allowed to see me? can I get out of banishment by just pretending to be productive, or will I need to provide proof of my productivity to some productivity judgement scheme? can I buy my way out of banishment by offering sexual favors?


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2441199 - 03/16/04 11:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, if there are problems we must fix them. But while schemes like 'lets forget about money' or 'lets abolish property' may sound good in theory, they will always be exploited by selfish and lazy people. It's nice to be idealistic but it's better to be realistic.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441209 - 03/16/04 11:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)


That's exactly what it's like under the current system(save for welfare recipients). People work because they need the money. And some jobs pay more because they're jobs that nobody wants to do, so you'd probably have to give people a greater reward for doing them.


Yes this is a good point. But I partially disagree on the jobs that pay more because nobody wants to do them.. there's maybe a few jobs like that.. most of the jobs nobody wants to do pay shit.

But perhaps a greater reward could be established for 'noble' jobs, or 'unwanted' jobs, that would give people greater incentive to do them. But the main point being that we want to create a more balanced system.


Are you going to give out the same reward for different kinds of work? That's one of the reasons why communism didn't work out.


I don't know. First and foremost, everyone's basic needs should be automatically taken care of.. survival should not even be a concern. Food, water, shelter, clothes.. these are basic human rights which everyone should have equal access to regardless of their job. But perhaps you have a point in saying that different work should be rewarded differently. But we can't be paying football players 10 million dollars a season, and be giving the guy working on the electrical lines $10 an hour. All I'm asking for is a more balanced system. It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, just more so than it currently is. Improvement, however it can come.


Lawyers wouldn't be needed? As long as there's injustice in the world(don't tell me you think injustice can be eliminated entirely), there will be a need for a judicial system, and as long as there's a judicial system, there will be demand for lawyers.


Lawyers reputations exceeds them. I'm not saying that we don't need a judicial system, just that the judicial system we have right now..DOES NOT WORK. It's too bogged down in tradition and old ideas and outdated systems for it to function properly. Lawyers can use deceptions and cheat this system with fancy legal terms that no one understands and such. A better judicial system could be established, one that did not send away non-violent drug offenders to prison for 20 years, and murderers to jail for 3. Again, all I'm asking for is more balance. The current judicial system is FUCKED. If you got money or political influence, or a position of power, or any combination thereof, you can get off just about any charge. Justice?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #2441226 - 03/16/04 11:16 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MikeOLogical said:
I don't understand about this banishing thing... suppose i'm banished and my brother isn't ? can he give me a gift of food? or is my brother punished for my selfishness by never being allowed to see me? can I get out of banishment by just pretending to be productive, or will I need to provide proof of my productivity to some productivity judgement scheme? can I buy my way out of banishment by offering sexual favors?




Sure he could give you a gift of food if that's what he wants to do... but say you were 'banished' from the community, you would not be allowed in that community unless you show that you will work towards the betterment of the community as a whole, so if he wanted to see you it would have to be outside the community. And I don't think there is anyway you can "pretend" to be productive. Productivity shows results, 99.9% of the time. It could easily be judged by non-biased, objective observers. I don't think sexual favors would buy your way out of banishment, just showing that you have intentions of helping others, and not just yourself, and following through with them.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441231 - 03/16/04 11:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Lawyers reputations exceeds them. I'm not saying that we don't need a judicial system, just that the judicial system we have right now..DOES NOT WORK. It's too bogged down in tradition and old ideas and outdated systems for it to function properly. Lawyers can use deceptions and cheat this system with fancy legal terms that no one understands and such. A better judicial system could be established, one that did not send away non-violent drug offenders to prison for 20 years, and murderers to jail for 3. Again, all I'm asking for is more balance. The current judicial system is FUCKED. If you got money or political influence, or a position of power, or any combination thereof, you can get off just about any charge. Justice?



The problem isn't the judicial system, but rather the laws it has to uphold. As for lawyers and their "fancy legal terms," that's nonsense. The judge knows what those terms mean, and they'll have little effect on the jury. And I'm sick and tired of the demonization of lawyers. My dad's a lawyer, and he's never sent a drug user to jail or helped someone win a frivolous lawsuit. You know what he does? Environmental law. He files suit against corporations and individuals who violate environmental regulations, thus helping to protect and preserve our environment.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441263 - 03/16/04 11:27 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Well more power to him then. I support his cause. I don't demonize all lawyers, just some.. sorry for generalizing and stereotyping, that was shortsighted and judgemental of me. But what about high priced lawyers that get obviously guilty people off of double murder charges on some bullshit doubletalk? :coughOJcough: and frivolous lawsuits.. like you said. I spilled hot coffee on myself so I am suing the coffee company for 10 billion dollars. That sort of thing.

But yes, the laws need to change.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2441265 - 03/16/04 11:27 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

He files suit against corporations and individuals who violate environmental regulations, thus helping to protect and preserve our environment.




then i applaud him. What we don't need are millions of do nothing lawyers leeching off everyone elses pain and suffering.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2441405 - 03/17/04 12:16 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

well then what about people whose intentions are toward the public good but who do no actual work, like the old lady on my block who walks up and down the street calling up enforcement on people who don't mow their lawns?

and what if my idea of supporting the public good is at odds with others, like if I want to beautify downtown with my artwork, but others refer to my artwork as "filthy graffiti"?

would I be banished then?

and just who would be in charge of banishing people anyway? how would you keep the person in charge of banishing people from just banishing anyone who he doesn't like or who doesn't pay some sort of tribute?

and who would defend the tiny community of non banished people when the banished masses attack all at once?


--------------------
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we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #2441522 - 03/17/04 12:55 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

That shit is sounding more and more like what we've already got.

Banishment to another area ain't gonna work.

In cultures where everyone pulls together for the benefit of the tribe, I believe that those who refuse to contribute are simply killed.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442081 - 03/17/04 06:50 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

money drives greedy and selfish people.

You're on the right track. It's not Money that is the problem. It's GREEDY AND SELFISH people. Think about it, what do they use money FOR? They use money as a tool to get what they WANT; be it drugs, houses, cars, women, jewelry...
If you took away the tool we use to acquire objects and other items of desire, it doesn't matter. There will still be Selfish and Greedy People, and guess what? They will still covet all the same possessions.. surprise surprise!

Using your "logic", I can say that all cars, fancy houses, clothes, jewelry and desirable objects and things commonly coveted..are all evil, due to the fact that there are greedy and selfish people who feel the urge to splurge on all the aforementioned desirables. You know that doesn't make any sense, right?

By your "logic", food is evil because there are gluttonous people who die from malnutrition, obesity and poor dietary habits. Nevermind all the GOOD that food (or money) does in the world. It must be evil, just cuz, golly, there are people who aren't as fortunate as others insofar as to eat properly and maintain healthy habits. :smirk:

It was created to.

Oh? Money was created to drive greedy and selfish people? Where are you getting this from? Sources, please?

It's the "root" of evil.

Fallacious.

What if I made a game where according to the "rules" everyone who played needed to kill 3 people a day?

:rolleyes: Go on, make up your own game. :smirk:

Again, I will reiterate, there will always be selfish people who use money for negative reasons. That does not make MONEY, evil.

It is not money's fault that the individual chose to take the darker path of negativity in life and use it for the wrong reasons due the their individual upbringing and how they learned to deal with certain issues, and views derived from certain influences in their life.

The root is not money. The root lies within Mankind's unperfection.

Think.


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2442778 - 03/17/04 11:58 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If you took away the tool we use to acquire objects and other items of desire, it doesn't matter. There will still be Selfish and Greedy People, and guess what? They will still covet all the same possessions.. surprise surprise!





The flaw in your argument is in that I do not suggest that we merely remove money, but also the entire system of placing "value" on objects and services.

If nothing has a "value" anymore, but simply is what it is, there would not exist the climate nescessary to cultivate any greed, or covetousness.

Money generally stops people, even rich people, from acquiring something they want at some point.(through lack of money)

This creates the opportunity to learn coverousness and greed. If everything got what they needed free of charge, and got to share all the luxuries available with everyone else, these evils would never have reason to arise. :gd_icon:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442842 - 03/17/04 12:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

So you believe that if all objects were 'equal in value'...selfishness and greediness would cease to exist in mankind?



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2442862 - 03/17/04 12:31 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

So you believe that if all objects were 'equal in value'...selfishness and greediness would cease to exist in mankind?





Not equal in value, but valueLESS. No concept of possessions.

Share everything , just as we once shared the land.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2442905 - 03/17/04 12:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

ther is no such thing as equal value... value is a result of individual judgement... for example, I value sticky nuggets.  I will pay $100 a quarter ounce for those stinky nuggets.  For me, the value of a quarter ounce of stinky nuggets is $100.  My brother doesn't like stinky nuggets, and won't pay a cent for them as they are useless to him... therefore the value of stinky nuggets to my brother is zero.

If my brother also liked stinky nuggets, and also valued them at $100, I might decide they are worth more to me, and offer the nugget dealer $110 for the same stinky nuggets, just so I could get them before my brother... does this make me greedy?  perhaps.  But if my desire for stinky nuggets is greater than my brothers, I will place a higher value on them than he does, they will be worth more to me, I wwill pay more, and as a result I will get them and he will not.

A third observer might look at the two of us together and say look there, that fat rich guy with all the stinky nuggets won't give any to his brother who has none... he is greedy and evil... as are his nuggets...

at which point I will burn those nuggets, as I'm about to do now :wink:


--------------------
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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Money is the root of all evil, not merely a "tool".... [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #2442924 - 03/17/04 12:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

If you could grow all the stinky nuggets you wanted to in the open with no penalty, again they would become valueless.

When i say "valueless" I don't mean you can't love them, I just mean that they are not a possession but a shared item.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

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