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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1656335 -

wrong. if consumers want ecologically sound products, companies that make ecologically sound products will thrive

exhibit a- the current skyrocket of "organic" food products.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1656455 -

atomikfunksoldier said:
wrong. if consumers want ecologically sound products, companies that make ecologically sound products will thrive

exhibit a- the current skyrocket of "organic" food products.


Completely correct and an excellent example.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1656562 -

yeah, thats the great thing about capitalism, that most people dont understand yet........the people are in control. all people need to do is mobalize and organize consumer unions, and they can dictate the actions of industry. its allready started in germany, im sure it will hit canada within the next 10 years.

think about it. if you live in a community of 50,000 people, and 10,000 of those people belong to a consumer union, if they make a demand...for example: they want subway to use 75% less packaging, subway has to either do what they say, or lose 20% of its business. people just have to co-operate.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/23/03 08:14 PM)

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1656594 -

Communism might have spread if US didn't have it's panties up in a bunch and start wars in Korea and Vietnam in order to "Contain Communism." If communism was let free, Europe would have been communist after WW2 and so would Africa and the rest of Asia. Americas would be safe because they would "Contain Communism" and close themselves off and die the fuck off.

The bad thing that would have happened is that Stalin would have had a son or another crazy faggot who rules with an Iron hand. He would then do the same shit Stalin did, kill kill kill, greed greed greed. Or other leaders would pop up in other countries and try to sieze power. In other words communism is a fairy tale and will not work because we are GREEDY FUCKERS AND I WANT MONEY SO FUCK YOU ALL.

Capitalism is way better because we profit off the poor and get rich. Even if it sux for the poor it is the way of life for humans. We kill and steal and that is alright.


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1656694 -

Quote:
capitalism is definitly better. more freedom.

Freedom has nothing to do with communism/capitalism.  It's true that there weren't many freedoms in communist Russia, but that's because of the people in charge, not because it was against any communist principles.  Incidentally, in the capitalist country of the US, we're slowly losing our freedom of speech, our freedom of reproductive choice, our freedom of privacy, our freedom to own guns...  again, it's up to the people in charge.
Quote:
for communism to function, the government needs to have total control over the people's lives.

Not true.  They simply need to have control over people's place of work.
Quote:
now you can bitch all you want about corporate control, but it aint shit compared to communist government control.

People who argue against corporate control are generally talking about corporate control of the Government.  So this argument is kind of meaningless.
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I would way rather live in a meaningless, alienated, consumer, materialistic capitalist society than live in a society where government politics dominates your social reality, and you are forced to fall in line and act like everyone else.

Communism has nothing against individuality.  You can dress how you like, and listen to whatever music you choose.  And freedom of speach is NOT against any communist principal (although many communist leaders have been against it).
Quote:
capitalism provides more freedom and individuality, even though it is also conducive to an unhealthy vapid life, at least you can change your social situation, all you need is $$$$$$.

True, if you've got the $$$$$ you can change things in a capitalist society, but poor capitalists are S.O.L.  Whoever's got the $$$$ controls what the media.  And again, communists have nothing against individuality.
Quote:
anyways, communism is just a sham, its just an intensified version of capitalism. ie- china.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but I'll assume that's because of my own ignorance.  :confused:


By the way, I'm not saying communism is better.  I'm just trying to ensure people aren't making too many false accusations against communism.    :rasta:         


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Phred]
    #1656744 -

Quote:
Laissez-faire Capitalism is better

The problem I see with Laissez-faire Capitalism is that the most successful companies will eventually become monopolies. And once they're monopolies, they no longer need to do those things that made them successful (like charge competetive prices). And while Laissez-faire proponents argue that monopolies can always be dethroned by new entrants into the market, I have a very difficult time believing that, because there are so many barriers to entry that a monopoly can employ, such as predatory pricing (temporarily lowering prices so much that any new competition will go right out of business).


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1656759 -

Quote:
I don't agree with that at all. If you got a certain market share with your business, and that was comfortable for you, and it never changed, you always kept the same amount of customers, why would you stop making money?

If all those things happened, you'd be right.  But in any capitalist system, if a company ever gets comfortable with its market share, it will quickly be pushed out of business by a company that wants to get bigger by expanding into your comfort zone.  That's just how capitalism works.  You're forced to keep growing by pushing others out of business, and if you don't, they will do it to you!  :shocked: 


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: downforpot]
    #1656763 -

Quote:
Capitalism is way better because we profit off the poor and get rich. Even if it sux for the poor it is the way of life for humans. We kill and steal and that is alright.

At least we got an honest person here.  :wink: 


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1656869 -

"At least we got an honest person here"

yeah, because im a filthy capitalist.....

"Communism has nothing against individuality. You can dress how you like, and listen to whatever music you choose. And freedom of speach is NOT against any communist principal (although many communist leaders have been against it)."

yes, inherently, communism has nothing against free speech or individuality, but for communism to work, people need to think communaly--- ie- about the community first, individual second. How does the government insure this? by restricting speech and individual freedom. In every single communist state this fact is demonstrated.

sure, we could sit and discuss our idealist versions of reality, but thats not me....i tend to focus on what has been demonstrated on this planet, and what I have noticed, is that people living in communist countries have less freedom, there is no debate over that.

sure, that can be linked to american global activities, but what it comes down to is this:

communism==greater focus on community==community is more important than the individual

capitalism==greater focus on individual==individual is more important than community.

and using america as an example of a capitalist system where individual freedom is deteriorating is silly, because there are countless capitalist systems where individual freedom is advancing.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1657305 -

Quote:
what it comes down to is this:

communism==greater focus on community==community is more important than the individual

capitalism==greater focus on individual==individual is more important than community.

I agree with your statement and the rest of your post. I think it's this selfish attitude that might actually explain why so many Americans could care less when we kill people in other countries and destroy their environments; because if it makes us better off, fuck everyone else. But this arrogant and selfish attitude could backfire someday. We are starting to see signs that the international community is starting to turn against us and our "who cares" attitude (such as France and Germany). No country in history has ever successfully controlled a significant portion of the world for long, and I don't think we will either. As we keep expanding our reign of control, I think international opposition against the US will just continue to grow.

Countries like France and Russia have proven that when there is enough of a gap between the rich and poor, and when the rich take great measures to ensure the poor don't ever get rich, the poor will rise up through revolution. As America continues to make it more and more difficult for the poor to succeed, I wonder how long it will be before a revolution occurs in America...

Quote:
and using america as an example of a capitalist system where individual freedom is deteriorating is silly, because there are countless capitalist systems where individual freedom is advancing.

I agree with you again! I think you missed my point though - I wasn't trying to say that capitalism leads to less freedom, I was simply trying to show that it is irrelevant to freedom (and I agree with you that historically, communist countries have been less free).


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1657329 -

i agree, freedom is inherent in neither systems, its all about how the citizens and government use the system.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1657356 -

wrong. if consumers want ecologically sound products, companies that make ecologically sound products will thrive

I think if you asked most consumers over the last 30 years whether they wanted the rainforest destroyed they would have said No. So why is it well on the way to being destroyed? This power of the consumer idea doesn't seem to be working very well does it.

exhibit a- the current skyrocket of "organic" food products.

It's increasing in America yes, but seeing as it was almost nothing 10-20 years ago that's to be expected. Whether it will ever approach the percentage of the food market that isn't organically grown is another story. Will developing areas of the world ever be able to afford organic food?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1657371 -

you'd have to ask south americans who buy vegetable crops and animal products grown on rainforest land cleared for agriculture and grazing.

funksoldier's right on this one. what the buyers will buy, the makers will make, and the sellers will sell. it's all up to the buyers (except in the case of government-subsidized markets).

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1657380 -

So why is the rainforest getting destroyed? Why is the sea polluted? When did consumers request that?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1657414 -

Incidentally, what happens if consumers don't request ecologically sound products hard enough? If they're too busy living their own lives to check whether every product they buy is "ecologically sound"? What if they can't afford "ecologically sound products"?

How is this theory going to work in the developing world? Are you going to have a company saying "Buy our new ecologically sound product - only $50" while another company offers it's version for 10 cents? Are you going to say "It's not capitalism's fault if they won't spend $50 (that they havn't got) on our ecologically sound products - it's the consumers fault".

It's not going to work is it.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1657450 -

I gotta agree with Alex. Very few consumers want rainforests destroyed. But since companies don't have to mark their products with labels like "this product destroyed part of a rainforest", consumers will buy the goods without knowing any better.


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1657662 -

hahaha, rainforests.

well, you see, I own one acre of rainforest in south america, back in the 80's, when the rainforests were the eco-catch-phrase of the month, someone thought it would be a great idea to sell the rainforest to concerned westerners, and consequently a huge chunk of it is protected. If this would have caught on, and more western consumers got interested, the whole rainforest would be protected.

consequently, consumers control the world. and actually cornholio, you are wrong, eco-safe labels are getting more and more popular, so look out for them.

my theory is rock solid, your petty attacks are poorly formulated.

heres an idea that will work if you want to save the dwindling rainforest. create a fast-food company (a mass appeal product for all the fat, stupid americans/canadians/brits/mexicans to gobble up) in your advertisments say that, for every ten dollars we make, we give 50 cents to a fund that protects the rainforest.

if consumers are educated about the importance of rainforests, and they care....boom! you just saved your precious little rainforest.

think about it, you can market this to impressionable kids.

does consumer X want to buy:

A- a burger
b- a burger that saves the world.

you be the judge.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/24/03 04:02 AM)

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1657995 -

Quote:
my theory is rock solid, your petty attacks are poorly formulated.

Ok, time for a little lesson in logic. The Spirituality and Philosophy group has a sticky thread called ?Philosophy Links?. The posts in that thread contains good links describing common fallacies of logic:

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Each of your statements commits one or more of these fallacies. Let me explain:

Quote:
hahaha, rainforests.

You start by using the appeal to ridicule fallacy. Laughing and ridicule add no strength whatsoever to your argument. I can do the same. Big deal.

Quote:
well, you see, I own one acre of rainforest in south america, back in the 80's, when the rainforests were the eco-catch-phrase of the month, someone thought it would be a great idea to sell the rainforest to concerned westerners, and consequently a huge chunk of it is protected.

This is known as a red herring . You introduce material that has no relevance to the argument to divert attention. You might even be committing the ad hominem fallacy, where you try and persuade someone to accept a statement you make, by referring to your particular circumstances, and the appeal to emotion fallacy, whereby you hope to get people on your side by showing what a ?good guy? you are by buying an acre of rainforest (though I admit these last two fallacies aren't as strong because I don't know the intent behind your red herring).

Quote:
If this would have caught on, and more western consumers got interested, the whole rainforest would be protected.

This one is loaded with logical fallacies. First of all, let?s say every person in America DID care enough to buy an acre of land. Then 250 million acres would have been purchased. But the rainforest has about 2.5 billion acres remaining (even more back in the 80?s). So even if everyone DID care enough to buy an acre, they still would not have even come close to protecting the rainforest. Additionally, we don?t know what percentage of people were even aware of this program, what their financial situation was, or how many people truly grasped how serious the threat was.

Quote:
consequently, consumers control the world.

First of all, your logic up to now is filled with logical fallacies. But lets give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that all of your previous statements were sound. I still don't see how you could arrive at your conclusion. If consumers had the ability to protect the rainforest, does that mean they control the world? No, it simply means they have the ability to protect the rainforest! What's the connection?

Quote:
and actually cornholio, you are wrong, eco-safe labels are getting more and more popular, so look out for them.

Sigh. This is a strawman fallacy, where you misrepresent what I said. I never said eco-safe labels weren?t becoming more popular, I said eco-damaging labels weren?t being used. If a label doesn?t say eco-damaging, the average consumer would have no idea if the product was doing damage to the environment or not (just because it doesn't say eco-safe, doesn't mean it's eco-damaging)

Quote:
my theory is rock solid, your petty attacks are poorly formulated.

This is about as childish as arguments get. Let me demonstrate. ?Oh ya, well your theory may be rock solid, but mine is even MORE solid! SO THERE!!!? If you have a good argument, let the argument speak for itself. Saying you have a strong argument means nothing ? anyone can do that.

Quote:
heres an idea that will work if you want to save the dwindling rainforest. create a fast-food company (a mass appeal product for all the fat, stupid americans/canadians/brits/mexicans to gobble up) in your advertisments say that, for every ten dollars we make, we give 50 cents to a fund that protects the rainforest.

if consumers are educated about the importance of rainforests, and they care....boom! you just saved your precious little rainforest.

think about it, you can market this to impressionable kids.

does consumer X want to buy:

A- a burger
b- a burger that saves the world.

you be the judge.

Again, the average consumer couldn?t care less if things were presented this way (this would only appeal to the hard-core environmentalists). If instead they had a choice between

A- a burger
b- a burger that ruins the world.

I would guess that the average consumer would be MUCH more likely to pick A. Just my opinion, but do you see the difference?


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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1658051 -

So why is the rainforest getting destroyed? Why is the sea polluted? When did consumers request that?

every time somebody buys meat or grain from land that's been cleared for grazing and farming. every time someone buys a product which in some way pollutes the ocean.

people don't pollute the planet and carve out peices of it just for the hell of it, they do it because it's profitable. it's profitable because people are buying products and services which pollute.

for instance, if people started having a greater concern for oil consumption and engine emmisions, they'd start buying smaller, more efficient cars. manufacturers would in turn build smaller, more efficient cars. they wouldn't try to keep selling 10 mpg gas guzzlers if they wanted to stay in business.

everything that companies do, they do it because it'll make money. the only way something will make money is if people are gonna pay for it. consumers control the market.

i don't see how this is so difficult to understand.

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Re: Capitalism or Communism? Which is better? [Re: ]
    #1658081 -

cornholio: that was boring.


I dont care for your arcane linguistic terms, they serve no purpose in this argument, and only detract from your point.

all of your replies were inneffectual, and you ignore truth just to point out your boring lameness.

all of your replies revolve around the idea that consumers are uneducated/apathetic. Which, of course you didnt mean to.....proves my point, consumers have all the power, if consumers were educated and cared about environmental issues, they would buy environmentally-sound products.

but fuck that, you dont even need compassionate or educated consumers, you just need good marketing, if you can brainwash the public into thinking that eco-friendly products are cooler and better than non-eco-friendly products, then you can save the rainforest.

this is a very basic concept, you stop giving a corporation money, and they die. you give a corporation money, and they thrive. I dont know where you live, but where I live (vancouver) fair-trade coffee is super-trendy.

thusly, western consumers support equality through consuming a product


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/24/03 10:43 AM)

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