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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Making Miracles Happen
    #1634280 - 06/15/03 02:43 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Making Miracles Happen by Gregory White Smith is a book about surviving an inoperable brain tumor. While very well done and quite inspirational, the usual pitfalls apply. While this may indeed seem quite redundant, note that Gregory was only able to write the book because he DID survive. In other words, those that follow his tenets and die will not be able to testify to the value of his "teachings" nor would he have authored a tome from his grave. Basically there are people that did NOTHING SPECIAL and survived. WTF does that tell us?

It is like a lucky lottery winner that goes on to explain how he won - after the fact! " I had a feeling that day and bet on the numbers of my daughter's birthday," - just like a million other saps who did the exact same thing and lost.

What would be a real testament, would be to give the book to 100 brain tumor patients and compare to another 100 that did not read/ follow the book then check the survivor rate 5-10 years down the road.

Even Smith concedes that "miracles' must be worked for--they don't just happen." Of course this goes against the definition of a miracle - i.e. divine intercession rather than rational, scientific methods being applied towards healing.

This is in accordance with the quaint, but useless saying, "God helps those who help themselves." So if I work a 40 hour per week job instead of staying home and praying for money, then God will "help" me by giving me a paycheck. Well that paycheck will come whether God helps or not, so the cliche has zero meaning.


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/15/03 03:02 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Swami]
    #1634298 - 06/15/03 02:52 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Oh Swami... when will we all understand that the probability of an event happening is always 100% after the fact?

What would be a real testament, would be to give the book to 100 brain tumor patients and compare to another 100 that did not read/ follow the book then check the survivor rate 5-10 years down the road.
Such a simple yet effective test.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Sclorch]
    #1634335 - 06/15/03 03:08 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Oh Swami... when will we all understand that the probability of an event happening is always 100% after the fact?

Never. The desire for magic is so deeply rooted in our history and culture that it will never be weeded out.

It is very interesting that many of those who proclaim to be in a higher state of consiousness actually operate from the more primitive brain where superstition reigns supreme.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Swami]
    #1634472 - 06/15/03 04:05 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

So the book sucked, OK.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: ]
    #1634499 - 06/15/03 04:24 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

No, the book was well-written and inspiring, but the premise is flawed like most mystical healing books.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinecastaway
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Registered: 06/10/03
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Swami]
    #1634638 - 06/15/03 08:21 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Not necessarily;
To attain an effect not encompassed by scientific theory requires work, effort.
Just because YOU may not understand it, doesn't mean it can't be rational, and in fact, if you COULDN'T come to terms with the rationality of the event, when presented evidence, then that would prove a prefference for a state of irrationality.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: castaway]
    #1635056 - 06/15/03 02:40 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

castaway: To attain an effect not encompassed by scientific theory requires work, effort.
So, are you saying that doing science is easy or that science makes doing things easy?

Just because YOU may not understand it, doesn't mean it can't be rational, and in fact, if you COULDN'T come to terms with the rationality of the event, when presented evidence, then that would prove a preference for a state of irrationality.
What? I think you have rationality and it's antonym confused.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Sclorch]
    #1635441 - 06/15/03 06:13 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The skeptic, upon proof, becomes no longer skeptic. The world of the skeptic then becomes a world of limited rationale, if not irrational.

" are you saying that doing science is easy or that science makes doing things easy?"-

No, I'm saying that manifestation is an effort of will.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: castaway]
    #1636264 - 06/16/03 01:39 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The skeptic, upon proof, becomes no longer skeptic. The world of the skeptic then becomes a world of limited rationale, if not irrational.
A skeptical person (not necessarily a skeptic), when given proof is satisfied until that proof is invalidated (by whatever means), BUT it is not necessarily so that this person is now no longer skeptical (even of the "proof").


Sclorch: ..are you saying that doing science is easy or that science makes doing things easy?
No, I'm saying that manifestation is an effort of will.
This could easily be tested.
Are you willing to gamble that you're right?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Sclorch]
    #1636787 - 06/16/03 08:30 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The question is:...Do you WANT it.

Because it aint going to happen if you don't.

If Swami WANTS proof he will get it.

If Swami WANTS to hold on to his safe little world then that is his reality.

But Swami has to do the work, no one can do it for him.

And Swami is the best judge if he tried or not.

Swami KNOWS what he wants.


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Offlinesolidox
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: castaway]
    #1636837 - 06/16/03 08:51 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> WTF does that tell us?
It tells us that you should use your brain and come to the conclusion that if you folow his techings, maybe you will survive, maybe not.

Same for if you don't follow his teachings.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: castaway]
    #1636922 - 06/16/03 09:52 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The question is:...Do you WANT it.
That is a statement, not a question.

Because it aint going to happen if you don't.
Lots of things happen that people do not want. Lots of people want things that never get them. Your statment is invalid.

* many personalizations deleted*
We are supposed to discuss topics, not individuals. This is Shroomery policy. Try again.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Swami]
    #1637121 - 06/16/03 12:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Swami, how about this:

It is statistically more likely that you will attain a positive goal if you, as the first step in a process which leads towards that goal, decide that you want it, and will work towards it.

Equally, it is statistically more likely that you will fail to reach a positive goal if you have not made the decision that you would like to attain the goal, and thus put in a half hearted (or lesser) effort towards reaching the goal.

And of course, it goes without saying that
a) Bad shit happens
and
b) Good shit happens

But we are talking about, in the two statistical cases above, changes which you deliberately decide upon and work towards.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1637146 - 06/16/03 12:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I agree totally, but by definition, a miracle is something that defies known natural laws; not an end-product of goal-setting, effort and determination.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Swami]
    #1637171 - 06/16/03 01:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Me no understand compound sentences... can you cut it back a bit?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Sclorch]
    #1637174 - 06/16/03 01:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Hey, how's my brain-dead buddy this morning? Too much Zen alcohol last night?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Swami]
    #1637177 - 06/16/03 01:05 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

God damned Belgian Ales....

Zen alcohol... LOL...ow, laughing hurts.



(actually, Sclorch doesn't get hangovers very often. :wink:


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Sclorch]
    #1637188 - 06/16/03 01:08 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

And who said I wasn't psychic? (Damned skeptics!) Don't tell them the lingerie story or I will be hounded forever...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: solidox]
    #1638467 - 06/16/03 11:06 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Solidox: "> WTF does that tell us?
It tells us that you should use your brain and come to the conclusion that if you folow his techings, maybe you will survive, maybe not. Same for if you don't follow his teachings."-

Could you elucidate?


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: Making Miracles Happen [Re: Swami]
    #1638506 - 06/16/03 11:21 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)


Swami:"by definition, a miracle is something that defies known natural laws; not an end-product of goal-setting, effort and determination."

mir?a?cle ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mr-kl)
n.
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God: ?Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves?
-------------------------------------

Luke 17:6
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,'
--------------------------------------

I may not have as much as a mustard seed but I'd think that the measure could be gathered within a group of sincere intent. I'd like to attempt the experiment but it would require a bit of organizing.
Would faith-healing in a controled setting be within your parameters?


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