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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: raytrace]
    #528364 -

Owls, cats, and trippers have great night vision and giant pupils.

Same thing with a camera. To take pictures in low light, you open the aperature.

Does everything have to have some mystical explanation when a more pedantic one will suffice?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #528511 -

While night vision can be explained away with pupil dilation, closed eye vision can't. Closed eye vision is not when you see something with your eyes closed (how can you, after all they are closed), but it is a state wherein one stays perfectly oriented and capable of doing things with their eyes closed. For instance tying one's shoelaces, walking barefoot on terrain of sharp rocks or in the forest without knocking over trees, etc.

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: gribochek]
    #528702 -

Here is another myth that is easily testable. As per usual, I am willing to put up a sizable chunk-o-cash against the reality of closed-eye vision.

What I think happens is that the mind gets imprinted much easier while tripping and takes a snapshot of everything that you see. In other words, one gets a visual "photographic memory" of the scene in front of them and can easily navigate the terrain. This seems totally amazing because we cannot do this very well in normal consciousness. However, blindfold said mystical tripper and take him/her to a new location and he/she will be totally unable to find their way around objects.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #528925 -

Swami first no offence to you, but I feel you are over doing it with being so rational, yes some of this things could have a rational explanation and I am not arguing with that, but is nice to feel that there is some magic out there and we all need a little magic and mystery in our life, in the end what?s important is the experience don't take that away from us and from your self, the middle path man.
Second I had trip in the woods many times in places I was not familiar before, and I can navigate perfectly don't even trip, yet in a normal state I will be fighting against the brush.
Is it because I am more relax, or that I am more sensitive or what ever?
The miracle for me is that I am able to do it, in that moment.

"If the string is to tight it may snap, if to lose will not play"
A master teaching his student how to play the sitar.


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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: LOBO]
    #528949 -

Swami first no offence to you, but I feel you are over doing it with being so rational... the middle path man.

Sorry you feel that I steal the magic. But it's people charging $3.99 a minute for the psychic hotline, the televangelists, the astrologists, the "I can communicate with your dead loved ones" cold readers (Van Prague, Edward, et al), and all the others that prey on people's weaknesss and gullibility that are the thieves.

As to the existence of some of the phenomena listed here, there is no middle ground. It is not like making a compromise. They either do or do not exist.

Yes, some people are disillusioned when I break the spell. Is that so bad - to remove an illusion? Or on the other hand - to show me once and for all the error of my rationalist ways? To date, no one has taken me up on any challenge (except for shroomism and the $20,000 bet of which I will not see a penny- even if he is wrong). Seems no one really believes in what they say.

There is plenty of everyday magic such as our very existence to fill our world.

Remember that you are free to skip over my posts if they disturb you.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #529015 -

The only illusion is that of the spell of materialism.
I have not forgotten our bet.

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: ]
    #529165 -

It is not the remembering that I am concerned about, but the honoring...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #529176 -

Of course I will honor it...if I am wrong

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #529454 -

Far be it from me personally to tell you to leave on the grounds that you are spoiling the illusion for me, for this is one thing you can't possibly do. Notice several things, though.

You are on the grounds where you can't loose. Things you can't refute, you explain. Things you can't explain, you refute. Things you can neither refute nor explain you refute or explain anyway.

But on what grounds do you choose to say what's a scientific hypothesis and what's not? What's a phenomenon and what's a "miracle" or "illusion"? If a brick that fell on your head is explained by a black cat, that's stupid, from your perspective, but when it is explained by a microcrack that was lingering there for two months, that's scientific. And if I ask you to explain why it fell on your head and not mine, then that is explained away by way of an accident. How convenient. Accidents don't need proof or further examination, accidents don't invite further questions, you can't loose. To ensure that you can't loose, to ensure that accident will be your eternal fallback position, you have invented the notion of reproducibility. An event must be reproducible in order to deserve your attention, otherwise it is called an accident and disregarded. (But can a microcrack in a brick that has already fallen be reproduced?) A whole science has been created to disregard miracles by way of accidents, it is called evolutionary biology.

Now you might justly ask me, if I may provide an alternative. In my example of evolution, an alternative to accident would seem to be purpose, or God. If in this dual argument sides are to be assigned, then you will find yourself sitting opposite to Shroomism, who has more in common with you then you will possibly imagine, he is not just your reflection in the mirror, but an exact copy of yourself, down to every little detail except for background. Same stubborn mind pushing on others the crap that you spent so many years investing your ego in. Where you stubbornly say "baloons" he stubbornly sais "aliens!", where you say "accident" he sais "God". Just a change of some keywords would completely transform him into you and you into him. So that's not my alternative. My alternative is to watch, enjoy the ride and take out the garbage in a timely manner. And if I talk to a giant green mantis while tripping, it doesn't matter to me if it is real or imaginary, or whether I can prove anything to you or not.

Yes, you steal the magic from people. In exactly the same way your notorious $3.99 per minute psychic hotlines do. After all "Scientific american" sells for $4.95.

Adios

-- Grib

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: gribochek]
    #529501 -

Far be it from me personally to tell you to leave on the grounds that you are spoiling the illusion for me, for this is one thing you can't possibly do.
Then why even intimate that I should leave? Are you protecting the helpless others from my rational onslaught? I find it funny that no one would think to mention that to someone posting total nonsense. It reminds me of the Amazing Randi's experience in a evangelical tent revival meeting. When he pointed out the the congregation the the preacher was using an old magician's trick to dupe them, Randi and not the preacher was ejected from the site.

If a brick that fell on your head is explained by a black cat, that's stupid, from your perspective, but when it is explained by a microcrack that was lingering there for two months, that's scientific. And if I ask you to explain why it fell on your head and not mine, then that is explained away by way of an accident. How convenient.
Saying something is an "accident" usually means that no more can be said about such an occurence. One survivor's (of the WTC bombing) spouse says "Thank God, my husband is alive!" Another victim's spouse says, "What did I do to deserve this?" Both are trying to find a reason for their fate. My take on this is that it is either purely random as to who lived or died or that the answer is unknowable.

An event must be reproducible in order to deserve your attention, otherwise it is called an accident and disregarded.
An event must be reproducible for the purpose of study and understanding, otherwise it is all conjecture. It is only ignored because no more can be said with any degree of certainty. I lived in Las Vegas for many years. All to frequently I would see someone hit a big jackpot and then asign some meaning to the causation, such as " I always win when Edna stands on my right." or some other superstition.

Yes, you steal the magic from people. In exactly the same way your notorious $3.99 per minute psychic hotlines do. After all "Scientific american" sells for $4.95.
Not even close my friend. I am not trying to con you and reach into your pocket.

Shroomism, who has more in common with you then you will possibly imagine, he is not just your reflection in the mirror, but an exact copy of yourself,
Perhaps, but I am not trying to get people to quit their jobs, sell their homes and move to high ground, only to question things presented before them.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #529527 -

Then why even intimate that I should leave?
If that what this sounded like, I apologize. Although, as I have previously suggested, you should leave to protect your prized possession of sanity, you should not leave for anyone else's sake. Those who can be challanged by you, should by all means be challanged by you, those for whom you are entertaining, should not be deprived of it, and those to whom you are annoying deserve to be annoyed.

An event must be reproducible for the purpose of study and understanding, otherwise it is all conjecture.
And then of course, your statement that a UFO observed by John Doe is not an alien spacecraft is different from John Doe's statement that it is indeed an alien spacecraft, because what? You have reproduced, observed and understood the event John Doe has witnessed? How is your explanation of John Doe's experience any better then Shroomism's? Please explain this one to me, I beg you.

Perhaps, but I am not trying to get people to quit their jobs, sell their homes and move to high ground, only to question things presented before them.
Perhaps. Or perhaps you are not trying to save people from imminent danger. Who knows....

Cheers

-- Grib.



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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #529622 -

I like how you attach a personal story to everything to prove your point...let me try that...

In a previous life I was sitting by the pond talking to a well renowned scientist. He was stating that all things could be explained by science. I asked him why we were sitting there and not floating around, he said gravity. I asked him why the sky was blue, he said it was because of the angle the light was refracted into the atmosphere. I asked him why the Earth rotates and does not just sit still, he said inertia. Then God came out of the sky and millions of dragons started flying around and the Earth turned inside out. In the afterlife, I saw him again and asked him how that could be explained by science, he replied, "It can't"

Not even close my friend. I am not trying to con you and reach into your pocket.

Who's pocket am I trying to get into?

Perhaps, but I am not trying to get people to quit their jobs, sell their homes and move to high ground, only to question things presented before them.

Such as the exponential increase in volcano eruptions, earthquakes, hurricanes, erratic weather patterns, sunspots, erratic animal behaviour and migration routes, war, famine, plague, pestilence, overpopulation, disease, and increased tension over the past 10 years?

You say all you want is evidence. That's not evidence?? The 12th planet is effecting our Earth even from the distance it is at. The MAGNETIC core of the Earth is being pulled on from its long lost brother, this will cause natural disasters to increase as it gets closer. Look at the statistics. Once inactive volcanos are suddenly springing to life, Earthquakes are striking all over the place, droughts and floods are increasing, holy wars are breaking out, and GEORGE W.BUSH is president of the US...scary.

I am not trying to get anyone to quit their jobs sell their house and move to the mountains either. I am only showing them that is a very real option. Would you live next to the ocean when you knew a tidal wave was coming?

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: ]
    #529690 -

I like how you attach a personal story to everything to prove your point...let me try that...
Cool. I am flattered that you would try my appraoch.

In a previous life I was sitting by the pond talking to a well renowned scientist.
Galileo, Da Vinici, Newton? Who was it? Who was it?

I asked him why we were sitting there and not floating around, he said gravity.
Ah - I knew it was Newton.

I asked him why the sky was blue, he said it was because of the angle the light was refracted into the atmosphere.
Yup - Newton.

I asked him why the Earth rotates and does not just sit still, he said inertia.
Go, Isaac!

Then God came out of the sky ...
How can the whole come out of a part? Good trick - even for God.

Who's pocket am I trying to get into?
That reference wasn't to you and you know it.

Such as the exponential increase in volcano eruptions, earthquakes, hurricanes,
Ah, no. Volcanoes and earthquakes were much more prevalent during the formation of the planet and slwoly decrease over time as the center of the earth cools and will eventually stop altogether like they have on Mars

erratic weather patterns, sunspots, erratic animal behaviour and migration routes, war, famine, plague, pestilence, overpopulation, disease, and increased tension over the past 10 years?
The weather has actually been quite stable for the last 150 years. Disease in the west has decreased dramatically, else there would not be such overpopulation.
I have no idea how you measure increased tension.

You say all you want is evidence. That's not evidence??
NO.

The 12th planet is effecting our Earth even from the distance it is at. The MAGNETIC core of the Earth is being pulled on from its long lost brother, this will cause natural disasters to increase as it gets closer.
But PhD geologists, astrophysicisst, astronomers, etc. who have the equipment, schooling and knowledge do not agree with you.

droughts and floods are increasing,
The Sahara desert is the remains of the worst drought in history and it happened some 10,000+ years ago.

holy wars are breaking out
Holy wars have been going on for millenia, i.e. The Crusades, et al.

and GEORGE W.BUSH is president of the US...scary.
You DO have a point there!

Would you live next to the ocean when you knew a tidal wave was coming?
Obviously not. But if the person trying to get me to move had zero history of prognostication, I would wait for some sort of confirmation.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #529834 -

Heh you are funny Swami..I like you.

On a side note I just awoke from a dream, you were in it. We lived next door to each other. That's all I can remember for now.
Oh yeah...you had curly black hair and a tattoo on your right arm.
That's all I can remember for now

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: ]
    #529851 -

I remember more.
The tattoo was on your right arm near your shoulder. Looked like some kind of military seal, maybe marines?
I saw you on the top floor of your house next to the window so I started yelling "HEY SWAMI!!!" Then I floated up and through your window (it was a dream) and we sat down in your den? and we were talking about science. Of course..you didnt realize it was me. heh (I was in disguise...maybe you were too)
Anyway, we had a nice talk. It was pleasant.

Edited by Shroomism (01/24/02 05:04 AM)

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: ]
    #529924 -

I have no tatoo as I consider my body sacred. (Please note: this is not a judgement on those that do - just what I feel is right for me.)

However, I do have dark (not black) rapidly thinning (due to shroomery stress) curly hair:)

Glad I made you laugh.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #529933 -

< Remember that you are free to skip over my posts if they disturb you. >
Now don't get so sensitive I am just pointing out what I see.
I was referring to the middle path because like some one pointed it out you are just behaving in the opposite spectrum; you use this forum to preach, not to share.
You are rapt up in your own fantasy no different the
shroomism , or for that fact like any one else.
You can't save no one. (I am sorry if I am breaking your illusion)
Peace.


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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #530357 -

em.. sorry for disturbing the swami-shroomism thing - not that i don't find it interesting... on the contrary, it is also very entertaining... like watching two skilled players on a chess board.. anyway - i would like to return to the shroom induced miracles subject for a bit...

well, for sure dillated pupils will give you better vision and thus brighter colours e.t.c... but have you ever had night vision with MDMA?? - not just simply a bit enhanced - (i do not know about you but my pupils get really large on it...)

...you imply that the only thing that matters is the diameter of the pupil just like a camera... so psilocybin and amphetamines(and i don't include mescaline here) would do the same (on the clarity of vision that is) as long as the pupils are the same size.. do you find this true? what do other people have to say based on their experience?

by the way i don't think you would consider your body sacred unless proved, so could you please tell me the procedure so i can test mine too..

with respect

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: Swami]
    #530467 -

I have no tatoo

But in the past life you surely had one. That tatoo caused you to fail your life's mission. Now the carmic wheel has turned and you will never get a tatoo again.

-- Grib

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Re: shroom induced miracles? [Re: gribochek]
    #530514 -

i have tattoos all over my arms, back and chest...am i paying the price for not getting em in previous lives?
anyway grib...i liked your point that swami and shroomism balance each other out, its a shame they cant fuck and have an offspring, that would be cool. well they can fuck but unless shroomism manages an immaculate conception ala virgin mary there will be no sprog....a dirty sanchez maybe?

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