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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Suffering- Good?
    #1607817 -

"There is no education like adversity." -Benjamin Disraeli

Many great minds of yore have suggested that suffering should be embraced as a key to wisdom or enlightenment. Buddha and Saint Nietzsche both upheld this notion.

If it is true that suffering brings wisdom, then should happiness be something that is not actively sought?

What does the Shroomery think?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1607828 -

Suffering can bring wisdom, but so can joy. I think maybe some people try to rationalize to find a positive in an otherwise negative experience.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: Evolving]
    #1607932 -

I have come to think of suffering as the key to learning. There is a simple relationship between suffering and joy, mainly that there is no way to measure joy without having suffered. Think about it, how could you know the beauties of the world (the joy of running in your short with the wind and sun as companions) if you have never seen the ugly ( hiding in your home from a rain storm).
I think that there must be balance. I think the key to wisdom is to find the JOY in all situations, even if it is only the joy of surviving the trauma. But that is just my opinion.


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"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: WaveRider]
    #1607964 -

So when we bombed Iraqi citizens we were helping them on their spiritual path.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: Swami]
    #1608078 -

Suffering - Good?

it sure does seem that way alot of the time..

ive never felt so euphoric as I did when I returned back to camp from being lost out in the wilderness, alone, exhausted, and out of food and water.

i guess the 'good' always comes after the suffering... which makes sense.
if your cold and you step into a warm building, it feels great. if you weren't cold beforehand than you dont care.

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: Grav]
    #1608081 -

and i sincerely believe i wouldn't be nearly this happy if i hadn't felt so shitty for so long in the past.

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: Swami]
    #1608208 -

Quote:
So when we bombed Iraqi citizens we were helping them on their spiritual path.


not that kind of suffering i would use the term "a poets suffering"

one good example would be jim morrisons poetry he embraced it

suffering happines same is the same force


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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1608307 -

If it is true that suffering brings wisdom, then should happiness be something that is not actively sought?

Yes. If you are seeking, or searching for happiness and liberation from suffering it will be the searching, and 'running after' that keeps you from finding it. Happiness is not to be sought after. Happiness is to be understood.


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1608350 -

"If it is true that suffering brings wisdom, then should happiness be something that is not actively sought?"
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I think happiness is a form of wisdom that speaks in a different language... It is not necessarily in the realm of logic, but rather, emotion which appears to be more powerful... It blinds logic at times of great intensity.

Suffering seems to make you more aware of the wisdom of happiness... It prompts you to search for, and look towards its direction.




For example: Some people fast. They get really hungry. When they do finally eat, they appreciate the food more... something they may have taken for granted before.

Logic is involved because it is necessary to eat... but it is also a very emotionnal experience. If you have never really fasted before, it is hard to understand.




If stress on your logical mind helps develop your IQ; then stress on your emotions may help you develop your EQ.



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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

Edited by Deiymiyan (06/04/03 05:31 PM)

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #1608360 -

very true

hapiness sometimes seems phony so to speak if it wernt for suffering we wouldnt know happines.i myself learned more through suffering made me aware of things as niche said "a spark if divinty within

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: buckwheat]
    #1610026 -

Evolving: Suffering can bring wisdom, but so can joy.
This is true.

I think maybe some people try to rationalize to find a positive in an otherwise negative experience.
So adversity does (or can?) NOT coax the mind into a wiser state, so to speak?

Swami: So when we bombed Iraqi citizens we were helping them on their spiritual path.
Another good point. Maybe it's a certain type of suffering or a threshold of some sort that, once crossed, impedes the mind.
So then, is it liminal suffering that prods our brains?

mindcandy: i would use the term "a poets suffering"
hehe... I like that term.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1610862 -

maybe it is only realized suffering that you benefit from?

I don't mean intentional suffering, but just the kind where you understand what's happening to you.

also..
if you're bombed to shit, (and if you survive), than you'll probably be quite content living somewhere non-violent and just Living.... whereas someone who has never experienced violence like that may be completely fed up with life, bored, angry, and end up doing very bad things.

but you probably shouldn't assign any meaning outside of that subjective awareness... like saying the terrorist bombers (usa), were only doing people a favor.

Edited by Grav (06/05/03 10:41 AM)

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: Grav]
    #1610873 -

suffering doesn't always lead to wisdom or joy, but it can be the catalyst for it.
Learning from suffering (wisdom) is up to the individual and, to me, has not ever appeared as a intrinsic value packaged with pain - but the opportunity to learn is in every situation, and learning from suffering is, for most us humans, a faster and easier way to gain wisdom.

but our choices on how we react, how we perceive and what we embellish determine when suffering moves beyond a functional tool to gain wisdom and a selfish, childish ploy to gain attention and be dramatic (and indication of a lack of a wisdom or awareness of faith) - so, in my opinion:

suffering can be beneficial if you have the strength of self to get over yourself and learn from it (have faith, trust wisdom etc) - but, it isn't like that for everyone all the time. If you seek suffering to be liberated from it, you'll find the layers of sufferable experince are as infinite as the blissful ones - even the dali lama and yogic guru's feel pain - its their digestion and recation which is completely different.


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-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: 11polakie11]
    #1610906 -

I've suffered enough and then some...
tired and exhausted...
Brought into this world without any choice
and forced to bear the burden of life...
begrudgingly I drag on...
poignantly aware of the despair and fear
the consumes me inside,
while a voice within sez... surrender,
face the seething festering inflamed
expectations that cry out "where's my promised happiness"
crippled, abandoned, disheartened,
trust broken, innocence lost, unfulfilled, empty
Fear, Anger and Dispair well up inside
Stay with it they say, "watch it", "don't judge it",
it Will transform to a peaceful exceptance...
but how...
I am not my misery, I am not my fears, I am
not my shattered dreams, I am not what
other's tell me I am, I am not what I think I am,
I am not my thoughts, I am not my sense of self,
neither observer nor observed.
Who am I ?
Ambivilant, they tell me that I am peace, love,
joy happiness... this is my true nature...
this, they promise, I will find...
that which I seek to be... I am, they tell me...
I hear these tales, I try to believe them,
to delude myself that I am "one step away from enlightenment"
and sometimes, just for a fleeting moment, I can distract
myself from the everpresent termoil that coils up inside me,
ready to spring back afresh.
Jack's Loathsome Self


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: lucid]
    #1610925 -

none of us were ever promised happiness, its not in the contract document - you want happiness, you make it within.


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-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: 11polakie11]
    #1610944 -

suffering is another experience, that can only be understood once you suffered, so if the "good" thing you are talking about, is experiencing things, than yes, suffering is good.

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: ]
    #1610965 -

>none of us were ever promised happiness, its not in the contract document
I was ! it was in my contract !
I was brought up being promised happiness and bliss every moment of my life.

>you want happiness, you make it within.
got instructions ? I need the complete recipe...
"Just convince yourself that you're happy"
or "Find reasons to make yourself happy" arn't
valid... they clasify uder "delude yourself" and "repression"
True happiness is effortless, it does not need
to be conjured. I know this because I had it before.
I no longer feel it...


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: lucid]
    #1610983 -

I seek peacful fulfilled happiness..
the kind that doesn't fear it's loss,
the kind that doesn't go away
the effortless kind
the kind that need not be sought
and I forgot the most important point...
the kind that can be shared without expecting anything in return :smile:


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

Edited by lucid (06/05/03 04:12 PM)

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: lucid]
    #1612315 -

i cannot tell wether you are being cynical, serious or silly


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-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_

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Re: Suffering- Good? [Re: 11polakie11]
    #1612942 -

>i cannot tell wether you are being cynical, serious or silly
a bit of each :smile: 


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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