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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis (Retired)
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 25,716
Loc: Iceland
happiness the enemy of wisdom?
    #3623014 - 01/13/05 01:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

it seems to me that suffering is the main thing that causes us to strive for liberation, and therefore wisdom. The buddha called suffering a nobel truth, because it drives us to search for enlightenment.

jesus and others also seemed to be somewhat tortured souls, tortured by disatisfaction with the current social order and thereby driven to seek a better way.

Perhaps the reason so few of us bloated north americans ever spend time doing that outdated thing called THINKING is that we are far to pacified and complacent. granted that isnt nescessarily the same as happiness, but it seems that in this age comfort and luxury have renderd intensive, personal spirituality obsolete.

In my own life ive noticed something interesting.

1. i have never been so happy with myself and my life

2. my intellectual pursuits and scholarly striving has dropped sharply in proportion with this happiness.

I mean ive made like a thousand threads on S and P, presumably to further explore life and add to enjoyment of it, but now, happy as i am... i draw a blank. there is no pressing need to figure things out and even less to try and prove my intellectual prowess or debate for the fun of it.

life is good , as it is, now. everyone will find there own way, so why preach? why argue at all, if truth is all relative?

my realization is increasingly that playing the role of the suffering saint, the tortured wiseman, the tormented poet... thats all ego crap. its an ego game based on the idea that the world is terrible and the person stands above it, looking down at its failings with sorrow.

My experience of life now is that I am great, yes i am fantastic, but so is the world around me, so are the people going by, so is the sun the clouds and the trees.

No matter what we do we are stuck in ego, playing a role. realizing this, i choose to play the most fun role i can, a joyous, loving one, and an accepting one.

Its like, if you have absolutely no desire to PROVE your point as superiorr or someone elses role as inferior, if you have no desire to engage in confrontational debate, what is the basis for conversation here?

how can i participate here when i know full well that your ephemeral system of structuring your illusory experience is just as valid as mine, no matter how stupid it sounds to me?

this leaves me in a tough position. i love you guys, like seriously i consider you friends and i miss talking to you but... what is there to talk about?

if i keep coming here and posting threads saying nothing more that

LOVE YOURSELVES LOVE EACHOTHER LOVE LIFE I LOVE YOU!!!!

youll all get pissed off at me. so, mayhaps i will vanish entirely...



Life is good yall.

PEACE!!!

:grin:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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Anonymous

Re: happiness the enemy of wisdom? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3623137 - 01/13/05 02:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Most def. Suffering, unhappiness, and depression tend to make you seek out spiritual or philosophical wisdom. This is a "protection fault" built into our brains so that we can find peace in ways where our social/physical lives are lacking and so that mass amounts of people don't kill themselves over their unhappiness. When one suffers enough, one gains enough wisdom to see things as they are (objectively) and may find that they no longer "fit" in this world. They're tired of this world, they feel they've experienced everything they wanted to in their life here, and would leave if they could. They then feel ready to "move on"... not die, but evolve to the next level of reality.

Some people get this feeling but are afraid, because they don't know there's anything beyond this world, or even beyond death. So they try to adjust themselves to fit better into this world. They think, "look at all these happy people around me, what's wrong with me that I can't be satisfied like them?" So they contort their minds and spirits to fit into this world, but it's uncomfortable and they feel constantly unsatisfied, like "something" is missing. They can just barely grasp this "something" but it's out of their reach. This life, to them, is like a repeating record, creating feelings of intense frustration at times, with themselves, and with the world around them. There are people like this who feel "ready" to move on, to grasp that "something." They may have felt this for a long time but didn't know what to do about it. They didn't know that all they had to do was follow their dreams and desires and everything would fall into place. And then, rather then seeking it out, that "something" will eventually come to meet them. Because that "something," is their true self.


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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: happiness the enemy of wisdom? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3623178 - 01/13/05 02:12 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree! Philisophical debate sharpens my mind, then when i go to do formal practice, i find that i know better what im doing and have more clarity and joy in relaxation!

But am i just being condtioned by these experiences of clarity and joy, have they become obstacles to my progress? Do i need more suffering to wake me in my life?

These are the questions i constantly ask myself, but when i do meditation and enter into the essence of what ive been taught they seem meaningless!

Mushrooms help with suffering sometimes, especially those experiences of insecurity and insanity.

I think im just getting comfortable with uncertainty, and tea making!

I love tea, does anyone else love tea?  :grin:


--------------------


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Offlineskystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
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Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: happiness the enemy of wisdom? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3623228 - 01/13/05 02:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
it seems to me that suffering is the main thing that causes us to strive for liberation, and therefore wisdom. The buddha called suffering a nobel truth, because it drives us to search for enlightenment.

jesus and others also seemed to be somewhat tortured souls, tortured by disatisfaction with the current social order and thereby driven to seek a better way.

Perhaps the reason so few of us bloated north americans ever spend time doing that outdated thing called THINKING is that we are far to pacified and complacent. granted that isnt nescessarily the same as happiness, but it seems that in this age comfort and luxury have renderd intensive, personal spirituality obsolete.

In my own life ive noticed something interesting.

1. i have never been so happy with myself and my life

2. my intellectual pursuits and scholarly striving has dropped sharply in proportion with this happiness.

I mean ive made like a thousand threads on S and P, presumably to further explore life and add to enjoyment of it, but now, happy as i am... i draw a blank. there is no pressing need to figure things out and even less to try and prove my intellectual prowess or debate for the fun of it.

life is good , as it is, now. everyone will find there own way, so why preach? why argue at all, if truth is all relative?

my realization is increasingly that playing the role of the suffering saint, the tortured wiseman, the tormented poet... thats all ego crap. its an ego game based on the idea that the world is terrible and the person stands above it, looking down at its failings with sorrow.

My experience of life now is that I am great, yes i am fantastic, but so is the world around me, so are the people going by, so is the sun the clouds and the trees.

No matter what we do we are stuck in ego, playing a role. realizing this, i choose to play the most fun role i can, a joyous, loving one, and an accepting one.

Its like, if you have absolutely no desire to PROVE your point as superiorr or someone elses role as inferior, if you have no desire to engage in confrontational debate, what is the basis for conversation here?

how can i participate here when i know full well that your ephemeral system of structuring your illusory experience is just as valid as mine, no matter how stupid it sounds to me?

this leaves me in a tough position. i love you guys, like seriously i consider you friends and i miss talking to you but... what is there to talk about?

if i keep coming here and posting threads saying nothing more that

LOVE YOURSELVES LOVE EACHOTHER LOVE LIFE I LOVE YOU!!!!

youll all get pissed off at me. so, mayhaps i will vanish entirely...



Life is good yall.

PEACE!!!

:grin:




I think it's true that search for wisedom comes from suffering,
but I allso think that once true wisedom is gained, the suffering
is gone. I allso think that in a community where individuals have
gained wisedom, there is no suffering, and utopia is possible.

So while I do think that suffering can be a god start for evolution into a wiser, more aware self, it is not necessary for continuence of such life. In fact I think it goes away as enlightenment comes in.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: happiness the enemy of wisdom? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3623243 - 01/13/05 02:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Its like, if you have absolutely no desire to PROVE your point as superiorr or someone elses role as inferior, if you have no desire to engage in confrontational debate, what is the basis for conversation here?




Well, for me, it's to improve my debating skills and refine my knowledge.  The more you debate, the more you get a feel for how arguments are structured, how logic works etc.  I don't feel the need to prove my point as superior, I have a desire to IMprove mine, and others' points.  Some people here have said on many occasions that people want to prove others wrong because it boosts their ego.  I think this is just a cop-out ad hominem. :smile:

I am here not really to figure stuff out, more to clarify the questions and understand what the likely explanations for things are.

Quote:

my realization is increasingly that playing the role of the suffering saint, the tortured wiseman, the tormented poet... thats all ego crap. its an ego game based on the idea that the world is terrible and the person stands above it, looking down at its failings with sorrow.




I agree, but I also think that too much is made of the "ego".  I have still not seen a satisfactory explanation of it yet, and the fact that it was coined by Freud makes me unwilling to use the word.

Quote:

life is good , as it is, now. everyone will find there own way, so why preach? why argue at all, if truth is all relative?





Because, assuming an objective universe as well as a subjective one, truth is not relative. :wink:  I don't think many people are here out of a need to work things out, I think its mainly recreational.

Anyway, I'm glad you're happy.  That's what this spirituality lark is about, after all.  If you're not here to debate things, and you've found your peace, then maybe you don't need this place after all.


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Offlinedeafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: happiness the enemy of wisdom? [Re: skystone]
    #3623322 - 01/13/05 02:46 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think it's true that search for wisedom comes from suffering,
but I allso think that once true wisedom is gained, the suffering
is gone.




Quote of the day.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: happiness the enemy of wisdom? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3623373 - 01/13/05 03:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

it seems to me that suffering is the main thing that causes us to strive for liberation, and therefore wisdom.

And this is why I refuse to contribute to the Tsunami Fund. I do not wish for the "victims" to be hampered in their spiritual journey.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: happiness the enemy of wisdom? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3623379 - 01/13/05 03:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I really enjoyed that. When you write from that place, something in me smiles and says, there you are, like a long lost friend who shares the space you are in now with me. I relate so much. Note how I changed my location a few days ago to clown school. Thats my way of saying, it's all about the fun and joy and laughter to be experienced.

I mostly feel the same as you in this thread. And I question, how do I participate when my life is so freaking good. I do not have the tortures of the seeker.

I can pretend to have them for converstaions sake or go back to a place in memory where I felt tortured to relate to others here with.

BTW, the others are pretending too, they just don't know it cuz they think this is the only reality so their torture must be really real. A separatist ego can easily create such illusions/delusions dramas.

Hey, you can even find amusement in that ego shit here and in life, it's like being at drama school. Said in a theatrical voice, "I am a tortuded soul pained by the injustices and suffering of the world. you couldn't possibly understand my pain for i am unique and special in it, woah is me"

So, ways to participate;

You can make up problems you've already solved and then encourage problem resolution discusssions to help others out. There are two ways people are helped. The first is, if they go to solve a problem for the first time, they will have worked there way through it and will be benefited by now having the preventitive measure under their belt or the solution if it arises. The other is for people actually experiencing the problem to learn from how others solved it.

If you see a powerful message being put out there that you know is beneficial, you can move to support it and add to it. If you see a crappy message being put out there that helps no one but bring them down, you can move to turn it around. You already do that well.

You can pose questions that you have alreay answered for yourself, just to get others thinking in new areas that may benefit them. You may also here others answers that you like better then your own and gain a new toy to play with, yeah!

You can also just move to relate to others who look alone in something beause having another realte to you in a place where you feel alone- not lonely-just alone, feels really good, like having a playmate come over to share in the joy with. Soemtimes, the relating is to anothers pain as sometimes, just knowing someone else understands eases the weight of being alone in something dark and heavy. By of course, once there with them, see if you can bust through the clouds with some sunshine, or give them your moonshoes with springs so they can jump out of it.

Elsewhere you shared with me how you wished more people shared their 'exploration" stories. Share them!!

hahahaha even in this thread, this is a form of pretend ego crap. Look at us; said in a theatrical voice, "my life is great, got a trick in the bag to solve every problem, life is easy and fun, look at me and how special I am." hahahahaha Cuz you also know that you are in the no egoic observer, watching yourself create this ego costume to praticipate in the world stage. You know, this world stage requires the doning of an ego costume and just face it, we have to move into one of our own creation to interact here or slip off into oblivions of bliss, which is fun too. Non the less, we have these bodies and we gotta do something with them while here. So we play pretend.

It's when you are conscious of that that the fun begins. If we wrote from this all the time, people would say things like, you are freak, a flake, out of touch with reality, need to be on meds ya ya ya. What they are really saying is, do not threatened the realness of my painfull dramas, I like them". And from the perspective we come from in this thread, they look like the freaks and flakes who are out of touch with the greater reality who need to be on meds-like nitrious or better yet cosmic herion.

Hook up the IV and you are good to go.

from here, I can say something like, swamis brother is having the blood iron problem because blood represent joy and the flow of it through us and in his case unlike anemia where one can experience joy but they let others quickly take it from them, he is repressing it from even being felt let alone expressed and shared. When the repression of joy runs to high and the iron count builds, they have to let blood out, let the joy out for him, because he does not know how to.

I can talk about the wholistic system and mind emotion body connection related to healing, but who will listen or care. They resist, why? because if you help them to resolve their problems, what will be left to make them unique and special? How will they feel speacial and get attention without problems to suck people into our dramas?

How do you let them know they are special and worthy of attention without having any problems? Human nature, rushes to problem areas and tends to leave well enough alone so the story goes watch and learn and change.

Like that post you did where you just said, not to brag but my life is great balh blah. I love it but didn't reply because there was no problem, I left well enough alone. But in this one, you did that and brought up the problem of how do I participate? So I replied to help give solution to the problem, but really, I knwo you already have them, I replied just to relate to you, because that is what you were really looking for.

ya know peeps, drama was hard wired into us so we can pull eachother into our realities so we would interact with eachother. before this, we were just off on our own joy rides of oblivion leaving well enough alone and spirit had no reason to pay attention to another. At some point, spirit wanted to know what this oblivion was and needed another to relate to but how? what would give cause to one interacting with another when all is well? a problem to solve? yes, we must not make all well and then by working our way back to well, we will figure out what this oblivion is by coming into realisation of it from out of not wellness, hell. And in the process we will then have the ability to share in teh joy of this blissful oblivion with others and really amp it up.



Anyway, what I said before is not a reflection on swami, his brother has the condition and maybe his brother would be open to wholistic insight. I don't know, but I think I can feel pretty sure, swami won't even entertain the idea or help his brother with it because it is not medically or scientifically proven to be the underlying non physical cause. Everything first goes phlooey in the energy bodies- mental emotional before it manifests in the physical, ya gotta look there. So be it.

back to the problem as to what we do while waiting for more to join us, sometimes, you can  say fuck it, and put on a costume and go play a role in someones drama just for fun. This is the if you can't beat em join them play. At least, you know how to pull out when you want and can maybe help pull them into more self realisation in the process.

Anyway, off topic of the "problem" to sharing in the exploration experiences here was a fun one. Last night in dream time, I was grabbing up parallel realities that have been co-existing outside of this one, ones where I made other choices in this life line and off shoots started, got about 3 I think. I merged all of the played out energy lessons into this one. That was cool. I woke up and had to sit up, look around and figure out which one of them it was I woke up in. Too fun. I feel great today, stuff feels so different, too cool for words.

A gap I had been working on closing and merging with someone who can go into the other reality we existed in materilised today too si i know it actually happened in the other planes. No more need to connect here from either of us, havn't talked yet, use to daily don't even feel a need to anymore, merge complete and successful.

Heres another, earlier, I was getting this trippy visual about how there is just one conscious mind everywhere and how, mini thoughts within it coagulate and create indivudual conscious mind percievers. Like it morphs into a condensed ball from within it. Wild.

Anyway, you are right, when in a total non ego place there is no way to write here so forget about it. The you typing has to first come through your ego mind to interact with others sooo just pick and choose costumes that you think will serve in some way. Thats what everyone else is doing weather they realise it or not. Stay in oblivion, jump in a drama, make up a problem to group solve or share an experience for fun and relation.

RUSH lyrics from Free will, " the real relation the underlying theme" as in thats all we are doing, realating ourselves to know ourselves.

I love you moonshoe :hug: :heart: :rotfl: :rotfl:

sorry for any typos my spell check isn't working-to many windows open I think literally and figuratively he he


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: happiness the enemy of wisdom? [Re: deafpanda]
    #3623469 - 01/13/05 03:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I feel the same, many people on this forum dont like thy're ideas picked apart, and feel as im begin egotistical by poitning out faults in there logic.

My question to those people, why post your views and opinions in the light of a public forum if your not willing to have them anaylized and commented apon?

What has ego got to do with sharpening ones mind and comparing your views, logic, and philisophical understanding to that of others
whilst pointing out valid parts for discussion!

Not much in my opinion, its my obligation and i will continue to do so.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (01/13/05 03:40 PM)


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Offlinedeff
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Re: happiness the enemy of wisdom? [Re: Sinbad]
    #3623810 - 01/13/05 04:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

awesome :cool:

I've heard one can seek truth or pleasure, but together neither will be accomplished. I agree that a true search for truth abandons pleasure (look at the scientific model), but that a mixture of both can be attainable, especially if the pursuit of knowledge brings pleasure itself.

Drawing a blank is good though. Very good :smile:


--------------------



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Offlineskystone
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Re: happiness the enemy of wisdom? [Re: deff]
    #3623847 - 01/13/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
awesome :cool:

I've heard one can seek truth or pleasure, but together neither will be accomplished. I agree that a true search for truth abandons pleasure (look at the scientific model), but that a mixture of both can be attainable, especially if the pursuit of knowledge brings pleasure itself.

Drawing a blank is good though. Very good :smile:




Yes, pleasure is subjective.

Monks sitting all day doing nothing and searching for the spiritual truth do find pleasure in it. Only that pleasure is not "active"
but more "passive"
The scientists searching for truth on a more precise and measruable way allso find pleasure in that.
A pall of mine spends his whole day (expet eating and sleaping)
doing math, he gets exhausted, but he loves it and it brings his pleasure.

Another example would be the exchange of finding truth and creation.
Creation is one of the greatest pleasures. Yet creation is far from being agains enlightenment, truth, wisedom etc.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


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