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InvisibleMoonshoe
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the root of suffering is desire
    #5011430 - 12/03/05 08:50 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

this is a fundamental fact of buddhism. that suffering is caused by desire, and to eliminate desire "the powerfull enemy of the soul" is the way to liberation.

for a long time i really struggled with this idea. after all, dont things that i desire, like sex, or drugs, or food, bring happiness more then they bring suffering?

sure, by renouncing all physical things maybe you could eliminate suffering , but wouldnt you also eliminate all happiness/pleasure? and isnt it worth accepting one for the sake of the other?

but then i realized i was thinking about it wrong. They dont say "enjoyment is the root of all suffering" but rather that DESIRE is the root of all suffering.

theres a differance. see, if you desire something, then by definition, you dont already have it, and thus you will feel pain because you want what you dont have.

so rather than desire things, simply spend your energies on apreciation

in conversations with god, the author talks about "sponsoring thoughts"

basically, your thought gives rise to your experience. so if you think you want something, all that thought gives rise to is the sensation of WANT. if you desire a new car, you dont get a new car, you get the desire for a new car.

So yeah. you dont need to renounce anything! you can fuck, drink, smoke dope, do whatever you want, but the key is to do it by way of accepting and acnowledging everything that comes into yoru experience, rather than always wishing for new things to come into your experience.

Like, dont sit around going "shit, i wish i had some weed" but if you DO have some weed, by all means, enjoy every puff! but when you run out, dont start thinking :shit i wish i had more: start thinking, i dunno, hey doesnt this blanket feel nice? or isnt the sky a lovely blue?

ok maybe that wasnt helpfull to anyone else, but just a little pseudorevelation i had.

Thinking: i want that = experience of want
thinking: hey, i enjoy this = experience of enjoyment

therefore, desire is fundamentally useless and negative, always.

NEVER want anything. Have, realize you have, and enjoy.

:sun:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (12/03/05 11:29 PM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5011444 - 12/03/05 08:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

"wanting, is creating that you can not create.."
-unknown :P


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Gomp]
    #5011478 - 12/03/05 09:03 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

exactly! fucking awesome, gomp


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5011583 - 12/03/05 09:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

So yeah. you dont need to renounce anything! you can fuck, drink, smoke dope, do whatever you want, but the key is to do it by way of accepting and acnowledging everything that comes into yoru experience, rather than always wishing for new things to come into your experience.

maybe you can but i certainly can't. i agree that desire is the root of suffering but i for one cannot smoke weed or drink and be free from desire. the feeling of being all burnt out or hungover is so shitty compared to the feeling of being high that i find it impossible not to desire to feel different than i do when i am burnt out, especially because i brought that feeling upon myself. the truth is that DESIRE IS WHAT MAKES YOU SMOKE WEED, if you were truly free from desire you would not have the desire to smoke weeed and hurt your lungs and make yourself feel burnt out afterwards, you would simply have no need for this compromise because youd be content to start with. when i am content i have no desire to smoke weed, it is only disconentment or desire for releif, desire to feel some way other than how i feel, that leads me toward that behavior. on the other hand when i am free from desire i have no desire to smoke weed, you could put the nicest looking bud in front of me and it doesn't attract me at all.


Edited by Deviate (12/03/05 09:36 PM)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5011623 - 12/03/05 09:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

if you desire a new car, you dont get a new car, you get the desire for a new car.




joy happens when you get something you desire.

sadness happens when you don't.

i don't think desire is bad itself. what's bad is not getting what you desire. what's good is getting it.

Quote:

wanting, is creating that you can not create..




consider that desire for a new car that leads a person to acquire one. that desire creates the new car for them.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Deviate]
    #5011941 - 12/03/05 11:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

good thoughts. i think the truth lies somewhere between your post and mine. maybe my example of weed was a bad one.

lets say your walking on a forest path in the evening. you ascend a hill, just in time to see a glorious, spectacular sunset blazing the sky orange and pink.

Reality has presented you with this opportunity, fortune has conspired to put you in just such a position that you can view this miracluous sight.

Pleasure is found in the observation and acceptance of this beauty, even though until you saw it, you had no concious desire to watch a sunset.

when the sunset is over and the sky is dark, you are left feeling content and gratitude, but you have no desire for another sunset... the experience comes, you enjoy it, then you let it go. You spend no more time wishing the sunset hadnt ended, or that you could witness another one immediatly. rather, you now enjoy the stars of the night sky.

You drift with the flow of reality, accepting what comes and enjoying it, but not trying to force reality to conform to your constantly shifting desires, with the inevitable result of suffering.

in other words, rather than trying to force reality to meet your desires, through constant effort and activity, you bring your desires into accordance with what is, and just enjoy...

this is what i was trying to get at/

returning to weed, we seem to have different experiences.

when i wake up in the morning, i almost always feel great. i feel happy, content, healthy, more or less eager to face the day.

BUT if i happen to have some weed in my pocket, it wont be long until i sit down and enjoy a contemplative toke. When the toke is over, i return to the business of the day. Maybe i shall toke again later, maybe not.

i never feel "burned out" really... being "high" flows back into being "sober" fluidly, subtly, so that it would be very very hard for me to distinguish the two states at all, in any definite sense.

When it is time to smoke weed, i enjoy weed. when it is not, i enjoy not. of course, i do still desire weed sometimes when i dont have it. But i propose that when such an unfufillable desire arises, the logical thing to do is quash the desire by shifting your attention from wanting what you dont have to apreciating what you do.

peace
:stoned:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5011969 - 12/03/05 11:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

yes our experiences with weed is different. i am never satisfied with just one high, even if i felt satisfied before i smoked once i come down i feel unsatisfied and have to smoke again. i could never control my weed intake, as soon id smoke once id end up smoking the whole rest of the day. it was by far the most addictive drug i ever tried. but anyway, what i dissareed with you on is your statement that you don't have to renounce anything. sometimes you do in fact have to renounce things that are causing you too much desire. if i hadn't renounced weed id still be a pathetic weed addict today.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Deviate]
    #5012018 - 12/03/05 11:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

"but anyway, what i dissareed with you on is your statement that you don't have to renounce anything"

yes, your right, we do have to make decisions of will about what we do and do not allow into our experience... that is personal power, and when you realized weed wasnt good for you and threw it out, you exercised that power  :thumbup:

we do need to make choices in life. But my point (which i regretably used weed to illustrate) is just that it is (i believe) possible to enjoy without desiring. Obviously this doesnt nescessarily apply to addictive chemicals, but in terms of life in general.

what im trying to point to is a way of life where everything that comes into our experience, every tree , every cloud, every passing face, is reveled in, enjoyed, dranken up joyously, then released freely, moving ever on to the next thing, with no clinging...with no desire.

another example: lets say your a bit hungry. you open your fridge and all that you can find is a lonely apple and piece of white bread.

theres two things you could do (well more than two but you know)

1. you could wish you had a hot cooked pot roast with gravy and mashed potato and butter and a side salad and a glass of wine and curse your humble apple and bread, thereby suffering from desire

or

2. you could take the apple and the bread, eat it slowly, savoiuring every second of sensation, every crunch, every chew... and experience pleasure

starting to see what i mean? not really talking to you alone deviate, just still rambeling on with my thought here...

PEACE


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #5012080 - 12/04/05 12:14 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, but you can't just destroy desire. Desire means passion, creativity, and it can create a huge amounts of energy. We just can't eliminate this experience from our lifes because of being afraid of suffering. I think the answer is to know how to treat your suffering not avoiding it because it's like skipping something essential.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5012231 - 12/04/05 01:03 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

what happened to just working towards appreciating every moment of existence?


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #5012375 - 12/04/05 01:34 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, but you can't just destroy desire. Desire means passion, creativity, and it can create a huge amounts of energy. We just can't eliminate this experience from our lifes because of being afraid of suffering. I think the answer is to know how to treat your suffering not avoiding it because it's like skipping something essential.




Bhuddists express that desire of what is impermanent leads to suffering. Realistically everyone does everything they do out of desire. If they didn't desire what they did they would not have done it. So the Bhuddists cannot mean that all desire is bad. I believe there are some things that are constant. I believe Awareness and Love are the greateast constants and we must desire them in order to act on them and benefit from them.


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Trust thyself.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: justAkid]
    #5012845 - 12/04/05 04:45 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

ok moonshoe (nice name by the way) here is my second attempt to explain what i wanted to say earlier. really what i was dissagreeing with that the attitude i often see from people here that "surpressing your natural desires is never a good thing" and that it is ok to continue pursuing selfish worldy desires and this won't detract from your spiritual growth. basically the anti-monk sentiment. this is something i strongly dissagree with. i'll give some examples to illustrate what i am trying to say. when i wanted to quit masturbaing i made a thread about it and many of the so called "spiritual" people here told me to continue masturbating, that it was good for me and that supressing my desire to masturbate was bad. yet in my experience this was completely untrue. my desire for masturbation was detracting tremendously from my spiritual growth, it was a cause of so much distraction and discontentment. so i ignored what everyone here said and quit masturbating. the first 10 days were difficult as i had to forcefully suppress the desire. after that the desire simply dropped from me and my mind became so much clearer and focus improved, no more annoying sexual thoughts popping up in my mind every minute. my level of happiness and contentment shot way up (in short it was without a doubt a good decision for me). you see, i believe the only way that worldly pleasures don't detract from your spiritual growth is if you are able to pursue them with non attatchment (or if once fullfilled they go away and cease bothering you). because i was unable to masturbate without becomming attatched to the feeling and because no matter how many times i did i never felt fullfilled or satisfied, my only choice was to give it up. now of course, having acheived non attatchment to masturbating i could probably do it if i wanted to. but guess what, i have no desire to do it at all. if a desire is causing you suffering, you essentially have 2 choices, fullfill it or overcome it. as i said, no matter how many times i would masturbate id never feel fullfilled, my only choice was to was suppress it.

another example i already mentioned was weed. i simply had to stop smoking weed because there was no way i could do so with non attatchment. my very desire for weed was rooted in attacthment.i believe that uncontroled pursuit of desires leads to what buddhists call the "hungry ghost" state where you no matter how much you get you never feel fullfilled. ive been in the hungry ghost state and i don't see any other way out other than to stop and begin supressing your desires. yes, its very hard at first but its so worth it in the end.

i agree with jesus's statement that you cannot serve two masters. you cannot serve your ego's lower desires while at the same time serving your higher self. ive tried it and it just doesn't work, one will always get in the way of the other. in my opinion those who advocate a spiritual path that does not involve letting go of your old identity old beliefs, letting go of your ego and serving only the higher self, advocate a false path. their path may take you to a certain point and you may feel like a very spiritual person but you will get stuck and never be able to get beyond that point and truely transcend suffering.


in short, i strongly dissagree with the anti monk way of life sentiment. i believe that renouncing worldly desires can be a powerful method of acheiving spiritual growth for some people. in fact, for some people (like people caught in the hungry ghost state) it may be a necessary step. it works because once youve renounced your desires your mind cannot keep pursuing them, it cannot keep looking outward because it's not going to get any satisfaction from outside so eventually it will turn inward.

now i am not saying that it is necessary to adopt the monk way of life, i am only defending it as a valid path to spiritual growth. i believe it is quite possible for some people to obtain maximum spiritual growth without adopting a monk way of life or officially renouncing any desires. for example the desire for body drugs like opiates, or alcohol. i never renounced my desire for those things, instead the desire simply fell away from me when i reached a certain level of consciousness. so some people do not need to supress their desires because their desires are not out of control, not out of balance and the unecessary ones will fall away when the times comes. but there are other people who are trapped by their deires, who are stuck in the "hungry ghost" state. for them, renouncing their desires may be the only way to bring their minds back into balance and find peace. sorry this is so long, i just felt this was an important point to make because ive seen other people make posts asking how to give up something and being told there was no need to give it up and i think telling someone this can be harmful. each person needs to judge for themself what desires are getting in the way of their personal well-being and if someone wishes to give something up i think it is damaging to tell them that supressing desires is not a good thing.


Edited by Deviate (12/04/05 05:00 AM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Deviate]
    #5012947 - 12/04/05 06:19 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Very good and balanced post, dev.
I don't want to derail, but if a desire has its cause in getting away from some suffering, I think it is an absolute necessary desire towards happiness, even a buddhist would see it as an desire which 'is' suffering.
I did not find a way out that paradox yet.

I only can see happiness in misery as a view of desired possibility to change this misery.
If one is not capable of that change, situation will get critical and one has to let go even those desires ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5012991 - 12/04/05 07:57 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Yippee! You got it dude! :thumbup: Veritas and I have been watching you develop this idea and work out the concepts and test all the angles. Man you are one cool dude. You definitely remind me of myself. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Deviate]
    #5013033 - 12/04/05 09:09 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I partially agree with you. But what is called to be the "hungry ghost" is more suited to an addiction level more than to desire. I'm not saying that desire can't lead to addiction because it does. But from my point of view addiction is something very different from desire, meaning that by addiction or "hungry ghost" you think of some psychological problem or damage and by desire you think about something spiritual.
I'm sure that stoping from masturbting made you more spiritual but you also must be aware that the same thing is working different for different people. It helped you as it could do nothing for somebody else.
The same thing goes for the quitting weed thing. But is that your purpose in life? To do things without attatchment because otherwise you become vulnerable? This is not strenght.... avoiding vulnerability. Real strenght is dealing with it, and still be able to develop spiritually. I think that's what we all sholud be wanting. To live the life we are offered, to accept all it's challanges, obstacles and weak moments we have because that's the only way we can evolve and
become better.
And, most important to do what we feel and to ba able to axpress ourselves freely.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Icelander]
    #5013380 - 12/04/05 12:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Ice, can you keep happy if someone burns your hand and don't you have any desire to pull it away ?
Hmm, perhaps this is a 'need', so buddhist rules don't work for 'needs'.
It is sometimes dificult to keep the line between need and desire, imho... especially when 'needs' get subjective or desires get objective :smile: Or if we talk about the need of the soul...
But perhaps you are in nirvana if you transcendend you needs into desires ?
I am lost ... :lol:
:mushroom2:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/04/05 12:55 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Gomp]
    #5013625 - 12/04/05 01:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
"wanting, is creating that you can not create.."
-unknown :P




That is nice. :thumbup:

Julebrus? Julebrus?! Julebrus!!!  :crazy2:

":confused:" :wink: :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5013635 - 12/04/05 02:02 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

if someone burns your hand and don't you have any desire to pull it away

Instinct takes care of that sort of thing. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: crunchytoast]
    #5013679 - 12/04/05 02:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
joy happens when you get something you desire.

sadness happens when you don't.

i don't think desire is bad itself.  what's bad is not getting what you desire.  what's good is getting it.




:lol: Why gamble with one's peaceful, content experience by playing The Reality Must Fufill My Demand In Order For Myself To Be Satisfied game which will certainly inflict unnecessary suffering upon oneself as it is a diversion that is rigged so that you experience a loss? :confused: To do so is ignorantly insane. :nonono:

You have no concept of the difference between an emotion-backed demand (which you refer to as desire) and that of a simple preference. Reality will unfold as it unfolds, and your stubborn will to demand and expect reality to conform to your ignorant "needs" is simply no match for it. It is to be accepted as it decides to present itself. Utilizing preferences will effectively guide oneself into an enriching, satisfying, aware state of being without holding that state of being hostage in order to make a list of demands of reality, which wouldn't negotiate with you even if it was possible for it to do so.

Not everyone's mind operates with the same thought processes as you. Desire simply isn't a part of the equation when it comes to a perspective that directly perceives reality without obstruction. :wink: Desire itself binds one from being able to effectively attain whatever the desire demands in the first place. :lol:

Quote:


consider that desire for a new car that leads a person to acquire one.  that desire creates the new car for them.




The desire doesn't create anything. The desire acts as an ineffcient, faulty catalyst that initiates the person suffering from such an infliction to take action that resulted in attaining possession over the car. There are more effective manners in which to attain possesion over the car or to arrive at any state which do not subsequently, ignorantly cause the experience of suffering for the person.

Desire is a parasite. If it let you realize that it was parasitic in nature, then you wouldn't allow it - thus its survival would be threatened. The parasite is very effective at feeding off of you without you even realizing it is there; or, if you are aware of its presence, it brings you to misperceive it as an aspect of yourself acting in your favor. :thumbdown: Expel it! :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5013715 - 12/04/05 02:25 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Ice, can you keep happy if someone burns your hand and don't you have any desire to pull it away ?




There is no desire involved. Desire isn't necessary for your body to physically react to your hand's burning flesh by immediately taking action to remove the threat from oneself. It happens as a natural reaction. Desire seems to only apply when it comes to situations where we have invested emotional needs, but that there is no immediate threat to one's life that requires an unconscious, fight or flight reaction. It is an abstraction resulting from a poorly managed mind. Desire exists as that emotional need in order to manipulate the conscious mechanism into becoming unconscious and automatically allowing action to be taken to fufill that emotional need.

There is nothing beneficial in suffering from desire other than that, by suffering as a result of desire infecting your mind's thought processes, you become aware of the problem and thus have the oppurtunity to heal oneself of desire. :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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