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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5013888 - 12/04/05 03:09 PM (16 years, 20 hours ago)

:thumbup: for your last two posts. desire=addiction as far as it seems to be used in this thread.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Icelander]
    #5013931 - 12/04/05 03:24 PM (16 years, 20 hours ago)

it all looks great on paper.... but I think all the hedonists were too busy masturbating, smoking and eating to respond to this thread...


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Icelander]
    #5013937 - 12/04/05 03:25 PM (16 years, 20 hours ago)

Addiction is the word that reflects desire's true, maleovent nature (in relation to our own benefit). I am a strong advocate of igniting a great wildfire of conscious awareness in order to promote a very healthy, mental immune system so that we do not remain blighted.

If anyone has ever played Morrowind, one's character is much more capable of roaming the vast wonder of the contintent and the expansive winter island and city when one isn't suffering from that cough that one picked up roaming around the Ashlands. :stoned: :lol:


But becoming a werewolf is a great asset in ravaging around, a mindless beast with an ironic sense for brutal attacks on Caldera and Balmora. Terrorizing Balmora is always a delight. :evil:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5013942 - 12/04/05 03:26 PM (16 years, 20 hours ago)

Nice topic. I don't know what Bhuddha meant by it. I do know how I chose to interpret it and use the idea to my benefit, sort of like how mushroomtrip sees it.

Desire is an aspect of creative energy and the will to know itself through experiencing itself and its creations and itself through its creations.

They key is to know how to deal with suffering when it arises is right.

Quick tips and tricks related to removing the suffering while you desire and create away.

As often as you can, always start off with feeling MASSIVE humbling amounts of appreciation for what you already have. Have yourself feeling like the wealthiest person on the planet to have your health, friends, family and what material possessions you do and what grand experiences you have already had.

It's difficult to feel suffering while desiring something new, when you are blown away in humble appreciation with what you already have.

The greatest trick is to simply NOT attach your self identity or self worth to any object, person, title, or experience.

Who are you with NOTHING standing NAKED? You a grand creative intelligent being worthy of your own love and love from others with NOTHING while standing naked.

When your sense of identity and self worth comes from your inherent divinity and not your things, relationships, titles or experiences, if you loose them or don't acquire a desire, there is no loss that can lead to suffering. You already are it all to the max with nothing and already feel like a King/Queen before even having it.

We suffer when we feel pieces of ourselves being cut or ripped away from us. Simply, don't equate yourself with things that can be taken away or lost or that are unattainable in the first place.

Have your sense of who you are fulfilled to the brim with nothing standing naked first.

Loss is simple to deal with when you can say to yourself, I acquired it before, I can again if its that important to me. Gets easier still if you just quit your "pit party poor me BS" and feel to yourself. "WOW" I was soooo fortunate to have had it and have known what it was like to have and experience it for the time that I did. I'm such a blessed soul.

Feeling fortunate and blessed for having had or known, even in loss will bring more fortune and blessings and soon you learn to trust in the process.

Think of yourself not as the owner of what you have but as a temporary "guardian care taker" of it. Of course you have ownership rights to your stuff, and yet, who cares, big deal, its pretty meaningless, as it all can be taken away by some greater force or power. Ask anyone effected by hurricane Katrina how that works.

By thinking of yourself as the temporary guardian care taker instead of the owner keeps it from becoming a possession of yours which keeps you from becoming possessive about it which keeps you from suffering attachment loss if you do. Regarding wanting new things, remember, as guardian caretaker of them, you will also acquire the management responsibility of caring for it. Think twice about what you want to be caring for.

Here's another thing some time and experience will teach you about acquiring stuff. When you buy your first new VCR, it is a wonder and marvel of modern technology. You can watch your favorite movies in your home anytime. WOW, you are so cool and lucky to have this treasure.

What did you end up doing with that amazing treasure when your home was taken over with DVD technology? Store it to become a dust collector? Sell it for $10 bucks? Throw it in the trash?

Your trash is another's treasure and your treasures are trash to someone else. This is important to realize.

The only thing with true eternal value that appreciates is your spirit of being. Your spirit of being is what temporarily assigns personal value or not and appreciation or depreciation to all else. There is GREAT power in realizing this about yourself and that you have been using this ability all along. The values we place on everything beyond spirit are not REAL and never were. They were and are illusions.

As quickly as you made something valuable to you, you can make something else just as valuable. You made having something of value to you and you have the power to make NOT having it a value to you with a change of perception about it.

How often to people ever realize the freedom from management and guardian care taking responsibility that comes along with loss? How many choose to revel in it instead of mourn in it? There's an upside to everything. Find it and revel in it instead of mourning losses and wasting away in a pile of self pity and suffering. It's only YOU who gives meaning and value to your own suffering. Quit giving it meaning, value and a reason to be. Place new meaning, value and reason upon life without it. :voila:

We are creative magicians surreal. Take your magic wand to anything that bugs you and bling it away by simply removing the value label YOU placed on it in the first place. Take that value label and stick it on something else like your ability to be able to do that in the first place.

Many ways to alleviate and nip suffering in the bud. Enjoy yourselves and your hearts desires! You'll be 6 feet under one day and just something as the mere ability to be cognitive with a pulse and breathing in a body would seem like the greatest treasure and gift to have. Your healthy alive body that you may treat like trash is the treasure of someone who found great joy in life breathing their last breath in this moment.

Don't waste your life suffering over losses or in pity parties of what you don't have. You always have creative ability to fall back on. It's your safety net. Spend your time appreciating and enjoying what you already have and creating ever anew with your ability to do so.

Real quick, for those of you who believe in some divine power or being, consider the bliss and joy its in and how it can have whatever it wants with its creative intelligent and its awesome power. It can't realize this through anything BUT YOU.

On a side note, joy and seriousness don't go together.

I have come to realize that serious states of being always come down to being in a state of fearing potential loss or feeling as if you have lost something. Pay attention to the nonsense you get serious about and look for where you have misplaced value attachments of yourself on. Remove them and let the joy and ease of living come back in.

:peace: :love;


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5013947 - 12/04/05 03:28 PM (16 years, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Why gamble with one's peaceful, content experience by playing The Reality Must Fufill My Demand In Order For Myself To Be Satisfied game which will certainly inflict unnecessary suffering upon oneself as it is a diversion that is rigged so that you experience a loss?  To do so is ignorantly insane.



i don't think it's a choice, it's just how it is.  we evolved with desires for food, sex, companionship, because these things helped us to pass on our genes.

Quote:

You have no concept of the difference between an emotion-backed demand (which you refer to as desire) and that of a simple preference.



please educate me :smirk:

Quote:

Reality will unfold as it unfolds, and your stubborn will to demand and expect reality to conform to your ignorant "needs" is simply no match for it.



in some cases this is true, some cases this is not true.  it's definately not true in every case.  this morning i was hungry and ate breakfast.

if i have a need that's not being met, i can find some way to meet it.  i don't think needs have to have fixed objects.  consider tom hanks in castaway.  with no people, he started talking to a volleyball, because of his need for companionship.  having needs is not sufficient to make respond to life rigidly.  on the contrary, i think that repression causes rigidity.

Quote:

It is to be accepted as it decides to present itself. Utilizing preferences will effectively guide oneself into an enriching, satisfying, aware state of being without holding that state of being hostage in order to make a list of demands of reality, which wouldn't negotiate with you even if it was possible for it to do so.



how did i choose to be hungry this morning?

Quote:

Not everyone's mind operates with the same thought processes as you.



i'm confident that everyone has desires, feelings, &dreams.  neurobiologically i think it makes sense.  we can get into a philosophy of mind discussion about this.

consider the following argument:
the symbols a computer that processes has no meaning for it; yet the symbols a person processes has meaning for that person.

that's why i think that without meaning, there can be no mind.  consequently, i think that all consciousness evaluates.  so when a person tells me 'i have no desires' i don't believe it.  a person only stops desiring when they die.

Quote:

Desire simply isn't a part of the equation when it comes to a perspective that directly perceives reality without obstruction.  Desire itself binds one from being able to effectively attain whatever the desire demands in the first place.




incorrect.  desire is part of the equation.  ignoring my hunger or pretending it's not there doesn't make it go away.  perceiving reality without obstruction would therefore mean being aware of one's desires as well, for example hunger or loneliness.

Quote:

The desire doesn't create anything. The desire acts as an ineffcient, faulty catalyst that initiates the person suffering from such an infliction to take action that resulted in attaining possession over the car.



i'm not sure if the pain of growth is exactly what i would call suffering, since suffering in the buddhist context seems to have a merely negative context.  but maybe the concepts are linked for some people.

Quote:

There are more effective manners in which to attain possesion over the car or to arrive at any state which do not subsequently, ignorantly cause the experience of suffering for the person.



:confused: you're saying there's a more effective manner of attaining the car.  yet i never vouched for a particular way of attaining the car, i simply said the person attained it.

Quote:

Desire is a parasite. If it let you realize that it was parasitic in nature, then you wouldn't allow it - thus its survival would be threatened. The parasite is very effective at feeding off of you without you even realizing it is there; or, if you are aware of its presence, it brings you to misperceive it as an aspect of yourself acting in your favor. 



desire is always there.  even in the person who desires no desire.  even the monk desires the path of the monk.  even the buddhist desires enlightenment.  and desire is there whether or not it is satisfied.  i was hungry this morning and had i not eaten breakfast, i would have grown hungrier.

Quote:

Expel it!



do you fast when you grow hungry?  does fasting make the hunger disappear?

Quote:

There is no desire involved. Desire isn't necessary for your body to physically react to your hand's burning flesh by immediately taking action to remove the threat from oneself. It happens as a natural reaction. Desire seems to only apply when it comes to situations where we have invested emotional needs,



incorrect, look at food or sex or excreting, which are physical needs.

Quote:

but that there is no immediate threat to one's life that requires an unconscious, fight or flight reaction. It is an abstraction resulting from a poorly managed mind.



ah really.  so people have evolved for the desire for companionship for no reason.  our anscestors who were more social didn't out-compete our anscestors who were less social?

surely there's more to survival than fight or flight reactions.

furthermore what about the human desire to talk?  consider the experiement done by james pennebaker that showed that people who talk journalled about their most traumatic experience had better physical health months later than those who did not journal.

i really doubt that the distinction "emotional" vs "physical" needs are so clear-cut.

Quote:

Desire exists as that emotional need in order to manipulate the conscious mechanism into becoming unconscious and automatically allowing action to be taken to fufill that emotional need.



hunger is a fact; loneliness is a fact.  if a person who feels these things denies them, they are making these things unconscious.  your argument is tanatamount to saying that "if i see a crazed grizzly bear charging toward me, i will pretend its not there; getting out of its way, takes away from my consciousness."  on the contrary, appreciating desire, pain, etc, for what these things are- signals means that a person is more aware of their experience, not less aware.

Quote:

There is nothing beneficial in suffering from desire other than that, by suffering as a result of desire infecting your mind's thought processes, you become aware of the problem and thus have the oppurtunity to heal oneself of desire



why not heal oneself of the problem?  we evolved with a capacity to experience pain for a reason.  the reason is, pain is signal that something is bad for the person.  i just don't understand why people act like the pain is the problem, and not the source of the pain.  pan is a good thing!  it gives information!  those rare cases of people who do not experience pain almost always die early deaths!  pain is good.  what the pain signals is bad.

that's like the person who throws his tv out the window because he sees george bush on it and gets mad.  do you think throwing the tv out the window solves the problem?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflinePed
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5013964 - 12/04/05 03:32 PM (16 years, 20 hours ago)

I'm with Deviate 100% on this one. I'll touch on his points a little further.

Moonshoe and I agree in stating that there is nothing inherently wrong with the experience of pleasure, or our indulgence in the pleasures to which we feel especially inclined. We agree in that it is not the experience of pleasure which is problematic, but the craving which comes as a result of the experience, especially in cases of repeated experience.


>> So yeah. you dont need to renounce anything! you can fuck, drink, smoke dope, do whatever you want, but the key is to do it by way of accepting and acnowledging everything that comes into yoru experience, rather than always wishing for new things to come into your experience.

>> Like, dont sit around going "shit, i wish i had some weed" but if you DO have some weed, by all means, enjoy every puff! but when you run out, dont start thinking :shit i wish i had more: start thinking, i dunno, hey doesnt this blanket feel nice? or isnt the sky a lovely blue?

This is where Moonshoe and I part company on this contemplation. What it sounds like you're saying, Moonshoe, is that a person with a sufficiently enlightened attitude can get away with an essentially hedonistic and self-indulgent lifestyle. The idea here is that by pacifying our sense of want, we can enable ourselves to pursue and apprehend unconstrained pleasures without developing the later suffering of craving. If suppressing one's natural desires is one extreme, it sounds like you've gone to the other.

I'll agree that your idea sounds quite logical in theory, but in practice I think you'll find something quite different. You see, the experience of pleasure is by it's very nature an extreme; it's an unbalanced way of experiencing things, and it does not accord with reality. As such, these experiences invariably seed the potential for craving and dissatisfaction in our mind. Changing our conceptual attitude toward the experience of pleasure does not address our more subtle mental habits and inclinations, and it's here on this subtle level that craving takes root in our consciousness.

The experience of pleasure has three ingredients. The first ingredient is a fundamentally ignorant mind called self-grasping; this mind believes ourselves to be islands of existence, carrying on as phenomenon completely distinct from other phenomenon. This is the mind which allows us to make distinctions between what we enjoy and what we do not enjoy. The second ingredient is another ignorant mind called self-cherishing. Self-cherishing is the mind which develops aversion to what our self-grasping informs us we do not enjoy, and attraction to what our self-grasping informs us we do enjoy. The third and least significant ingredient is the actual sense experience.

Sensory experiences do not in themselves possess any intrinsic power to give rise to the experience of pleasure or pain. It's because this is true that sensory experiences cannot be considered inherently right or wrong, moral or immoral. Simultaneously, however, this truth informs us that sensory experiences are not inherently pleasurable or unpleasurable. And so it's the mind, particularly the self-grasping and self-cherishing mind, which makes the distinction between which sensory experiences are enjoyable and which are not.

Self-grasping and self-cherishing are minds which, by their very nature, relate to reality in an unbalanced and extreme fashion. They apprehend reality incorrectly, and it's this schism which creates the vast potential for the experience of true sufferings. So long as our sensory experience is interpreted through the minds of self-grasping and self-cherishing, our experiences of pleasure and satisfaction will always give rise to proportionate experiences of suffering and dissatisfaction.

We cannot uproot these minds simply by recognizing that it's the craving which is problematic and not the actual experience of pleasure. When we conceive a sensory experience as being pleasurable, already we have apprehended reality improperly and set ourselves up for problems. We cannot wage a purely conceptual war on our craving as you suggest, by continuously reminding ourselves that we do not need what we previously enjoyed, or by distracting ourself in other enjoyments, such as a blanket or the blue sky. This will only lead us into the experience of denial, whereby we are suppressing our craving while indulging ourself in enjoyments.

There are two extremes in play here. One extreme is found in suppressing our natural tedency toward pleasure, and the other extreme is found in suppressing the experience of dissatisfaction which comes as consequence of our continued indulgence. It is easy for us to see that bottling up our desires does not work. We cannot deprive ourself of sexual enjoyment, as one example, with an attitude of denial. This attitude allows the painful experience of craving to continue on unabated, because we have not addressed it's root cause. By the same token, however, suppressing our experience of craving with an attitude of denial also does not work. With this attitude, we disallow ourself to experience the dissasfaction of hunger and craving while we continue to neglect it's root cause. Because they are two polls of the same process, denial, both of these attitudes lead us to a place whereby we conceive of ourselves as advanced human beings when in fact we are ordinary beings bound up tightly in knots.

The key here is to distinguish between action and intention. Suppressing a desirous impulse is an action. The cause for doing so is the intention. By the same token, indulging in a desirous impulse is an action. The cause for doing so is the intention. If the intention is coloured by denial, which is a kind of ignorance, the action will bear only sour fruit. However, if the intention is coloured by wisdom, the action will bear the fruit of true and lasting happiness.

Indulging in a desirous impulse is never an action coloured by a wise intention, because the very conceptualization of pleasure is the product of self-grasping, which by it's nature is a mistaken and unbalanced mind. Until we uproot self-grasping, our experiences of pleasure and pain will be dependent-related experiences, and we will continue to cycle through them completely out of control. If we have the intention to uproot our self-grasping, we should not indulge in meaningless pleasures, because these experiences are like fuel which serves only to strengthen this mind of ignorance. If with the intention to uproot our self-grasping mind, the true cause of our suffering, we turn our backs on petty enjoyments, we will not enter in to an experience of denial, because our intent is coloured by wisdom. We have recognized the mechanincs of suffering and have set about the actual effort of disassembling that machine. This is the attitude of a renunciate: he or she renounces suffering and it's causes, and naturally avoids it's contributing factors.


--------------------


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Edited by Ped (12/04/05 03:43 PM)


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5014092 - 12/04/05 04:06 PM (16 years, 19 hours ago)

"the root of suffering is desire"

I've found the exact opposite to be true. Lack of desire, lack of intent, and aimlessness leads to suffering as a result of stagnation. At least it did for me.


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5014228 - 12/04/05 04:53 PM (16 years, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
lets say your walking on a forest path in the evening. you ascend a hill, just in time to see a glorious, spectacular sunset blazing the sky orange and pink.

Reality has presented you with this opportunity, fortune has conspired to put you in just such a position that you can view this miracluous sight.

Pleasure is found in the observation and acceptance of this beauty, even though until you saw it, you had no concious desire to watch a sunset.

when the sunset is over and the sky is dark, you are left feeling content and gratitude, but you have no desire for another sunset... the experience comes, you enjoy it, then you let it go. You spend no more time wishing the sunset hadnt ended, or that you could witness another one immediatly. rather, you now enjoy the stars of the night sky.

You drift with the flow of reality, accepting what comes and enjoying it, but not trying to force reality to conform to your constantly shifting desires, with the inevitable result of suffering.

in other words, rather than trying to force reality to meet your desires, through constant effort and activity, you bring your desires into accordance with what is, and just enjoy...





here's a poem by William Blake (i really like it and i've probably posted it like 5 times already but...)

He who binds to himself a joy
Does the winged life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's :sun: rise

and here's a quote by him that kinda fits this thread also...

He who desires, but acts not, breeds pestilence.



i think it's all about balance :yinyang:
you have to have some desire in life but you must also except everything you don't have the power to change!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5018950 - 12/05/05 07:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nice post, Moonshoe. :grin:

I think that there has been some muddling and mixing of terms in this discussion.  For the sake of clarity, I would like to suggest these definitions:

Need: essential to physical and/or emotional wellbeing.
Want/desire: important but not essential.
Addictive demand: a want which is falsely seen as a need.

OK, that said, neurosis arises when a want is transformed into an addictive demand.  We want the particular person we are in love with right now to love us back, to be around us regularly, to treat us with affection and respect, and to be sexually faithful.  These things are important, but not essential to our physical and/or emotional wellbeing.

The need in this scenario is the basic human need for companionship and belonging.  If we insist that our wants are actually needs, then we create suffering in our experience whenever those specific wants are frustrated.  We fool ourselves into believing that our wants are essential to our wellbeing, and sabotage our wellbeing to prove it.

Basic needs for food, sexual outlet, shelter, companionship, are often obscured and complicated by the heavy loads of wants we pile on top of them.

Yes, crunchytoast, you need to eat food.  You do not have a choice about whether you are hungry.  However, you want particular kinds of food.  You may want eggs for breakfast, rather than tuna fish.

If you recognize that this want is important, but not essential, you can accept that you do not have eggs, choose to eat the tuna fish to satisfy the need to eat, and move on with your day.  If you falsely believe this want for eggs is a need, and essential to your wellbeing, you may become upset over the lack of eggs, yell at your roommate for eating all the eggs (that selfish bastard!  :mad:), and tell yourself that your day is ruined.

That is the different between an emotion-backed demand/addiction and a preference.  If the frustration of a want (not a need) ruins your day, it is not a preference.  When basic needs go unmet, it will affect our physical and/or emotional wellbeing, even if we try to deny that a need has gone unmet.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Veritas]
    #5019247 - 12/05/05 08:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Icelander]
    #5019751 - 12/05/05 10:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal."
:tongue:


Edited by MushmanTheManic (12/05/05 10:16 PM)


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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5019841 - 12/05/05 10:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

make yourself a plan
they need you at the top
then make yourself a second plan
and let the whole thing drop


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Offlinerwilber
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: rwilber]
    #5019857 - 12/05/05 10:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

the root of suffering
is your own doing

in the next life don't check
that box


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Veritas]
    #5021058 - 12/06/05 01:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, crunchytoast, you need to eat food. You do not have a choice about whether you are hungry. However, you want particular kinds of food.




great post :thumbup:

yes-

(although as you noted, your use of "want" is specialized for the sake of clarity
-and so, doesn't comprise all "want"...)

but- the jist of what you said is exactly what i have in mind.  yet i feel like i don't get my point across in these threads.  as right as you are, i'm under the impression that many people are still going to walk away believing they can choose to be happy by "reprogramming" alone- which doesn't make sense:

if a need is real, then the need must be satisfied (i agree it can be tuna or eggs).  simply "reprogramming" one's brain, however, doesn't satisfy any need, cause a person's still got to eat in the first place.

this is the point i feel like i'm arguing; it's one of the points you've made in your post; yet as true and common-sensical this point is, you can bet your bottom dollar that its antithesis will remain popular.

perhaps this is because telling oneself that needs can be satisfied through force of will alone is much easier than taking responsibility for caring for those needs?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: crunchytoast]
    #5021400 - 12/06/05 02:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

so are you saying that it would be impossible to die peacefully because your survival needs aren't being met?

or that it would be impossible to feel peaceful during a fast because your need to eat isn't being met?


you say that reprogamming the brain doesn't satisfy any need, this is true from the standpoint of the body but unture from standpoint of the mind. example, if my leg gets crushed the doctors might inject morphine -- changing my brain to make the pain go away. would this be useless because it doesn't heal my leg? the point is that the way you feel is not inextricably linked to any SINGULAR circumstance of your situation. this is proven by the fact that a sick person can fall to sleep and dream they are well or by the fact that a drug can make you feel happy despite having a crushed leg. these experiences would be impossible if your mental state was determined solely by the physical circumstance of your leg being crushed.

now maybe you could argue that reprograming the brain to maintain peace and composure despite unwanted circumstances such as impending death or bodily injury or lack of food is impossible without the help of temporary acting drugs (if so then you show should show evidence to support this as an impossibility because otherwise i have no reason to believe that). however if youre claim is that the need for mental peace cannot be filled when a particular physical need isn't met, then this is clearly false as i have shown.


Edited by Deviate (12/06/05 03:15 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Deviate]
    #5021530 - 12/06/05 03:18 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)


perhaps this is because telling oneself that needs can be satisfied through force of will alone is much easier than taking responsibility for caring for those needs?


but if you lack the discipline and repsonsibility to take care of your needs you obviously also lack the discipline to take care of them through will alone. if your will is that strong than pursuing your needs is just child's play.


Edited by Deviate (12/06/05 05:26 AM)


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OfflinePed
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Deviate]
    #5021816 - 12/06/05 04:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

>> however if your claim is that the need for mental peace cannot be filled when a particular physical need isn't met, then this is clearly false as i have shown.

:thumbup: :thumbup:


I must say, I'm surprised at the pervasiveness of hedonism and hedonistic attitudes on this board.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Ped]
    #5022279 - 12/06/05 09:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not surprised at all. In fact it makes sense to me. We are brought up pretty joyless and without experince of who we are. Hedonism is a search for meaning. Skillful or Unskillful.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineViveka
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Simisu]
    #5023339 - 12/06/05 02:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

here's a poem by William Blake (i really like it and i've probably posted it like 5 times already but...)

He who binds to himself a joy
Does the winged life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's rise

and here's a quote by him that kinda fits this thread also...

He who desires, but acts not, breeds pestilence.






another one...

Sooner murder an infant in its cradle than nurse unacted desires
-Blake --Proverbs of Hell


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Offlinesecretmachine
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Re: the root of suffering is desire [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5024911 - 12/06/05 08:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ok, well i have to start this late, but the way i have come to understand this concept is self-identity. First of all, the world is constantly changing, and nothing is permanent.. except one thing, but i'll get to that later. the question is who are we? who am i? what do we base our sense of self on.. the fact is you can base it on anything. for example say i saw a beautiful sunset, and i thought to myself, this is the greatest thing ever! and after that time, i spent my whole life searching for that beautiful sunset, when im not around this sunset, i dont feel good. I think that is the root in a practical sense. My point is, if you base yourself in something impermanent you will suffer. I guess this is more in regards to depression. ok now that i think about it, we desire because we want something to become part of us, to cure the emptiness inside, this is how i see hungry ghosts. The solution i have found is to base myself in something that i can control, mainly, myself. In fact, since i have done this, i rarely desire anything. I rarely buy things, i rarely do anything except chill out by myself and think, ponder, philosophize, daydream.

I guess my point falls apart though, because i suffer when i cant be alone, and have to socialize, go to school, or do anything else where i have to focus outside of myself.. ok, so that leads me to ask the question, what can i base myself in that will be somewhat effecient? i would like to be able to do anything i do well..


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A civilization based on authority-and-submission is a civilization without the means of self-correction. Effective communication flows only one way: from master-group to servile-group. Any cyberneticist knows that such a one-way communication channel lacks feedback and cannot behave "intelligently."

the principle of authority" was the "eminently theological, metaphysical and political idea that the masses, always incapable of governing themselves, must submit at all times to the benevolent yoke of a wisdom and a justice, which in one way or another, is imposed from above."
"no one should be entrusted with power, inasmuch as anyone invested with authority must . . . became an oppressor and exploiter of society."


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