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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Suffering
    #4472847 - 07/30/05 04:52 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

There is an immense variety of ways that we suffer, but all of these can be included within three types. The suffering of change, the double suffering of unpleasantness piled on unpleasantness, and the all pervading suffering of being conditioned. This is not a matter of mere philosophy; its very real. We can and do experience suffering, discomfort, distress, and worry throughout our lives. Dualistic mind is always ready to be upset, to feel uneasy. An input from the senses, a memory or anticipation that is either a little pleasant or a little unpleasant always has the power to disturb us. In addition, there is one suffering which we can never ultimately sidestep: death.

Suffering does not mean that life is continuously painful or that everything is unpleasant. it does mean that happiness or pleasure, it is not forever, and it is never perfect. Even when things seem to be wonderful and we have achieved what we want, we still worry thinking, "Is it going to run out? Is it going to get a dent? Am i going to lose it?". Pleasure mixed with apprehension is rendered imperfect. "Am i going to lose this happy feeling?" "Is there a greater happiness i could get instead?" Worry spoils the pleasure.

The three types of suffering are not difficult to understand. There is the suffering of change. Double suffering is simply the fact that suffering is already unpleasant, and that this unpleasantness can easily become compounded. Things can get worse. The third type is the suffering of being conditioned, which is both more subtle and more pervasive than the simple ability to be hurt. For example if a thorn pierces our skin, we immediately have pain. While in this physical body, it does not take much to hurt. In fact it takes very little. Even a bad smell can be enough to upset our sense of equilibrium. If its a particularly nice smell, our minds also become a little disturbed. it seems that fickleness is a quality that's built into our present, dualistic state, even more so than the fickleness of a small child.

We can certainly all agree that there is suffering. This is the first point, to acknowledge, that there is suffering. The second point is to understand that it is not uncaused, there is a reason. The reason we suffer, is due to selfish emotions. These emotions have one driving force, the belief in ego. Clearly there is only one way to solve this dilemma: to realize egolessness. We need to reverse this mis-conception of a self-existing "I". We need to investigate thoroughly and come to the conclusion that there is no real ego, after which we need to train in this state of equanimity where no concept of self is held in mind, which is the state of egolessness. Cutting the tree of ignorance at the root, we can dissolve all ego-clinging and become stable in the knowledge that realizes ego-lessness. This is what is meant by great bliss, great peace, freedom, or liberation.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Suffering [Re: Sinbad]
    #4472958 - 07/30/05 06:55 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

well looking at the problem doesn't make it go away,
and "recognizing egolessness" is really too abstract a notion
what else have you got to make this "spiritual transformation" work


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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
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Re: Suffering [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4472991 - 07/30/05 07:49 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well, to begin with, we need some method, some technique to lead us to the ultimate. The best method is of course effortlessness, but effortlessness cannot be taught, or chased. Even if we try (especially if we try) we cannot become automatically effortless. Effortlessness just does not seem to spontaneously take place. Still it is a fact that confused experience falls apart the moment we simply let be in a non-dualistic state. Right now, for most of us, every moment of ordinary experience is governed by conditioning. Our present habit is dominated by deliberate effort. We have therefore no choice but to use our present habit of deliberate effort to arrive at effortlessness. Once we are accustomed to effortful meditation, we can then make the leap to the effortless state.


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Edited by Sinbad (07/30/05 08:02 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Suffering [Re: Sinbad]
    #4473071 - 07/30/05 09:01 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

so, besides stylistics like effortlessness, and yearnings for the "ultimate", you are saying...


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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Registered: 12/23/04
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Re: Suffering [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4473079 - 07/30/05 09:10 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Huh? Stylistics? Wtf!?!  :lol:

Yearning = Craving = Attachment. Im not saying we should yearn.  :lol:

Come off it red, you are joking, right?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Suffering [Re: Sinbad]
    #4473273 - 07/30/05 12:29 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

what ultimate do you yearn for?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Suffering [Re: Sinbad]
    #4473277 - 07/30/05 12:34 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I have found the easiest way to effortless living is to get out of my own way. :smile:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Suffering [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4473282 - 07/30/05 12:38 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I have found the easiest way to effortless living is to get out of my own way. :smile:




:laugh:


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Invisiblebudsicle
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Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 232
Re: Suffering [Re: Gomp]
    #4473305 - 07/30/05 12:57 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

yeah this is one way to approach suffering, and may not even be awfully bad one but i find this talk about "egolesness" and "ultimate goal" ultimately frustrating sometimes, in everyday life a mere Hug will probably do more good to help suffering than bunch of philosophy about non-dualism


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Suffering [Re: budsicle]
    #4473333 - 07/30/05 01:14 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

hugs is real good


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Suffering [Re: budsicle]
    #4473344 - 07/30/05 01:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You're on to something big. Much suffering can be transformed by surrendering to natural loving feelings, often locked up behind body armoring. See the cuddle party thread in Health and Welbeing. :thumbup: :heart:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Suffering [Re: budsicle]
    #4473496 - 07/30/05 02:35 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

a mere Hug will probably do more good to help suffering than bunch of philosophy about non-dualism
Quote:










:laugh: :thumbup:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
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Re: Suffering [Re: Gomp]
    #4473557 - 07/30/05 02:58 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
Quote:

a mere Hug will probably do more good to help suffering than bunch of philosophy about non-dualism
Quote:










:laugh: :thumbup:




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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Suffering [Re: Gomp]
    #4473586 - 07/30/05 03:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I don't try to dodge suffering. I suffer sometimes. It's inevitable. Sometimes I feel like shit with no energy. An example is last night when I was in the shower. I washed my hair, but I was just standing there zoned out after that. I knew I had to wash myself and I had to go to the store soon, but I didn't care. I cowered down with my head buried in my arm. Ofcourse my feelings were on the negative side. I had no reason to feel bad, I just had no reason to feel good. So I said to myself "I can sit here doing nothing, or I can get up and wash myself so I can go to the store. I know what I need to do." Eventually I got up and washed myself super quick. That's why I like suffering sometimes. It's a reminder to you to stop being a dipshit. You have a choice to acknowledge the suffering and do something about it or wallow in it. If you wallow, you're still a dipshit. If you do something about it, you're not.


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Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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