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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1424229 -

What if we had a war and nobody showed up?

Props to Toxicman and Ripple... I think they are both right on some level, but i still sometimes wonder if maybe everybody should make peace a personal responsibility and not fight in foreign wars.


--------------------
"Once a nation bases its security on an absolute weapon, such as the atom bomb, it becomes psychologically necessary to believe in an absolute enemy." - P.M.S. Blackett

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: Dim]
    #1424363 -

sorry... i didn't realise that this thread was 3 pages long... I wondered why my first post wasn't visible... I guess it does seem kinda non-sequitur now that i look at it again, plus I think It has already been said.... I guess i am dumb or something

Anyways, I think RadioActiveSlug's pics are pretty good....

George Bush's people think that this war is gonna be like world war II, with all the cheering Parisians welcoming the GIs, and an enemy like Hitler who, unnopposed, probably would have conquered all of eastern europe (and some of western europe too). What really gets my goat is when people make the whole munich pact/ saddam hussein/ adolf hitler analogy...Come on, look at history here; the media said the same things about daniel ortega (the dictator of Nicaragua) that he was the next hitler and would attack the US, etc.

these are the arguments for the iraq war

1)Saddam is evil
2)he supports Bin Laden
3)bring democracy to Iraq
4)help the kurds
5)WMD

1)Saddam is no saint, but he's sure no Hitler either. It's not like if we didn't do anything, he'd go about invading the world like hitler did. Come on Iraq vs the world...it just doesn't hold water. He already apologised for the whole Kuwaiti affair (Kuwait, after all, was stealing Iraqi oil by drilling sideways into Iraq).

2)Osama Bin Laden has repeatedly stated that one of his primary goals is to overthrow Saddam Hussein... Al Qaeda and Iraq are mortal enemies. true Iraq does support palestinian groups, but then they have never attacked the US, so what does the US care?

3)Come on... there isn't a single democracy in the Middle east besides Israel. The gulf states are all tyrannies, Saudi arabia is the only country in the world still named after its royal family and in Egypt the president is always either reelected or succeeded by his son or heir (if it isn;'t under military rule). In all these countries, there is almost no right to free speech or freedom of the press besides maybe al-jazeera....go ahead, read some newspapers from there, they will make you laugh before they teach you anything they are so half-assed. I really doubt that Iraq will be the only exception to this rule, given that all these countries I named are supposedly good US allies.

4)If this war is about retribution for the gassing of the Kurds, then how come we never hear anything about the opinions of the kurds on the news? How many of you knew that turkey is currently waging a genocidal war on the kurds (and have been for several years) with US weapons? before you blindly buy this argument (and it is probably the only good argument for a war in Iraq) check out this article: http://kurdistan.org/Washington/washburn5.html
Listen to what the kurds have to say about the US and its support for turkey. I would encourage anyone to read up on Turkey's long list of atrocities.

also, what alot of people don't realise is that saddam hussein gassed the kurds in his country about 15-20 yrs ago when the US was on friendly terms with Iraq (Iraq was then fighting Iran, the US's enemy).

5)As for wmd... use your head for this one. If this was the reason for the war, then how how hans blix and the other weapons inspectors are against the war (even scott ritter thinks this argument is ridiculous). Just ask yourself who has more wmd... USA (or FSU and N Korea for that matter)...or Iraq. Hell, even Britain and France have more wmd than Iraq. Ok, I know saddam actually USED them, but then again, almost every country is somehow guilty of using wmd (yes, even the US). some japanese scientist once said in regards to wmd "there aren't any clean hands in this game". The DoD was even contemplating using nuclear-tipped "bunker-busters" to take out saddam hussein's people. I find that ironic if the whole point of the war is to stop wmd.


this is what i think of the whole war on iraq thing. it's kinda long i see now...sorry for that...anyways, please argue with me, i never take it personally and love these types of debates.


--------------------
"Once a nation bases its security on an absolute weapon, such as the atom bomb, it becomes psychologically necessary to believe in an absolute enemy." - P.M.S. Blackett

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1424846 -

Thank you TM for that marvelous post.  I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Our sentiments run parallel on this issue.

But here's the thing, and there is no getting around this one.  Most people come to this argument just like they come to most other arguments, with preconceived notions and prejudices that will not allow them to see, understand, or God Forbid  :shocked: change their mind about something even if they are shown facts that contradict their ill-conceived and ill-thought-out notions.

You might as well talk to a wall.

Surely I wasn't implying that no innocent life was lost in Iraq.  But peaceniks want this war to be Vietnam and warmongers want it to be WW II.  It is neither.  But, you'll never convince the diehards of that.  They want to believe what they want to believe and that is that.

Notice how your correction of the quote went unaddressed?  Typical, and I am sure you know that.

This is yet another reason that I enjoy philosophy and logic so much.  If the facts are known it cuts through all the bullshit.

Take, for example, the photos we were shown.  That is a classic example of argumentum misericordiam, appeal to pity.  Somehow those photographs are to appeal to our emotions and sway us to another viewpoint.

This is tried by both sides of the abortion issue.  One side shows pictures of dead babies and the other side shows pictures of coathangers.  As if either thing can move us emotionally and so we will switch sides.  Most of the time it doesn't work.

Now obviously those pictures are stirring.  But when I have photos like that shoved in my face for the purpose of persuasion I turn off whatever feelings I have and rely on reason.  It is a much better guide.

As I am fond of saying, "Valid logical arguments that constitute proofs or disproofs are intellectually convincing.  Rhetorical arguments, if effective, are persuasive, emotionally or intellectually, but never convincing."

And lastly on the issue of serving one's country, I think you and I both understand that one can and some do serve their country out of a sense of honor, duty, and service.

Had I been able I would have enlisted.  Not because I am a warmonger, but because I would want to protect my mother, father, siblings and other loved ones from foreign invasion.  I would have enlisted for the same reason I was a suicide interventionist and probably for the same reason you give of your time here so that no one poisons themselves.  It is because I care. 

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1424858 -

In reference to the pictures:

[In best Jack Nicholson voice]

Sell pity someplace else. We're all stocked up here.

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: ]
    #1425219 -

the average military man


Edited by slppe (04/03/03 01:32 AM)

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: Aldous]
    #1425259 -

Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But the people serving in our military don't have any say about whether there will be a war or not or whether they will participate or not. They gave up that right when they volunteered to join the military.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's precisely why I ended my post the way I did: to me, the real heroes are those who refuse to go. In the case of the US soldiers, this doesn't even apply, since they volunteered: they gave away to others the right to decide about their own lives and actions. To me, this is simply unforgivable. I hope for them they realised from the beginning that signing up for the army could very well result in being sent to war (I was going to write 'dirty war', but there's no such thing as a clean war).

I've got a couple of questions:

1. Do you think everyone who joins the armed forces do so with the intent on being sent into an unjustified war?

2. Do you think that all wars are unnecessary?

3. If all wars are unnecessary, what do you suppose to do when someone else doesn't feel the same, and they wage war on you?


Just thought I might add that I am against the current conflict. I just was curios to your thoughts. Thanks.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1425390 -

Quote:
were those pics supposed to make people who support this war feel guilty?...i pray for them people but don't feel guilty. nice try.

I have an idea, place some of the pics from the saddam era, you know the ones....the ones where he gassed the Kurds, tortured civilians and hung people for agreeing with the oppositions point of view. That would be a hoot.




wow you really are ignorant

the'yre not supposed to make you feel guilty, they're supposed to show you whats going on over there. if you feel guilty then you have something to feel guilty about.

As far as the photo's of showing the people saddam gassed.....GOOD LUCK FINDING ANY, cause guess what, there was never any proof of that happening. lol but keep on watching faux news dude, your good at that.

Iraqi Poison Gas Use Not Proven

"There were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds -- in Turkey where they had gone for asylum -- failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq."
Please go to the web page below to see the story:
THE FULL STORY



--------------------
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned." -Buddha
www.impeach-bush-now.org

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: ]
    #1425399 -

pity? lol what are you somekind of great man? being kind enought to hand out your pity to the lucky few you deem worthy? you make me sick

its called Empathy, a basic human fuction which seems to have escaped some of you.

it has nothing to do with pity or guilt, but i do find it a little odd for you two to bring those two things up.


--------------------
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned." -Buddha
www.impeach-bush-now.org

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1425409 -

uh would you like to make a comment on the apparent hypocrisy of selling WMD to Saddam, of trying to shift the blame away from Saddam after Halabja (Even though we knew the truth), Of providing massive loans after he gassed the Kurds and more gas as well! only to bring it up as a reason to destroy him TWELVE YEARS LATER - Thats not hypocrisy then?

How about the hypocrisy of using Human rights as a cover for this war when for the last decade the US have singlehandedly caused the suffering and deaths of hundreds of thousands by blocking innocent medical supplies under the sanctions regime which had been approved by all other parties involved only to see them vetoed by the US and on several occasions the UK too. This is not hypocrisy?



--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1425608 -

Quote:
pity?  lol what are you somekind of great man?  being kind enought to hand out your pity to the lucky few you deem worthy?    you make me sick

its called Empathy, a basic human fuction which seems to have escaped some of you.

it has nothing to do with pity or guilt, but i do find it a little odd for you two to bring those two things up. 


And now we move from argumentum ad misericordiam to the inevitable argumentum ad hominem, how predictable and how, boring.

Yawn

Trying mixing in a little logic with your arguments.

That way they make more sense.  :grin: 

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1426416 -

Quote:
"There were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds -- in Turkey where they had gone for asylum -- failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq."

If you've read my posts, you must have noticed I'm definitely a peacenick, and you couldn't suspect me of any sympathy for this war or US troops.

But this, good man, is called revisionism. And even if Halabja had never happened, that wouldn't change a lot. I've seen Saddam defend torture in an old interview, I've seen him send alleged plot stagers to the firing squad, he's even proud of these things. It's really easy to substantiate the fact that the Saddam regime is bloody and repressive.

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: Skikid16]
    #1426476 -

Quote:
1. Do you think everyone who joins the armed forces do so with the intent on being sent into an unjustified war?

No, see this thread.
Quote:
2. Do you think that all wars are unnecessary?
3. If all wars are unnecessary, what do you suppose to do when someone else doesn't feel the same, and they wage war on you?

Wars are either waged to initiate or keep up some kind of injustice or domination (colonial wars, oil wars, imperialist wars) or a reaction to that injustice or domination (liberation and independance wars, "holy" wars against invaders,...). Since the fall of the Berlin wall, the western powers remain as the sole upholders of dominance and injustice (on a world scale, that is). Why do you think our oil, your coffee and other foreign natural resources are so cheap? Because they're vital to Western-style economies, which are prepared to wage wars to 'defend' their cheap access to them (wars aren't always necessary for those purposes, economic power may be used as well, sometimes through institutions like the World Bank). So wars aren't just going to stop until inequality, injustice and domination are over, which isn't likely to happen.

So yes, wars are very necessary to the people who wage them, but that doesn't mean you have to support them. But I agree that question 3. has no satisfactory answer: I don't know what I would do if I was an Iraqi, except fight back.

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: ]
    #1426570 -

Quote:
Had I been able I would have enlisted.  Not because I am a warmonger, but because I would want to protect my mother, father, siblings and other loved ones from foreign invasion.


Hmmm, how can you justify invading another country in defense of your family and invasion?  Saddam did not cause 9/11, so what is your basis for saying you would go over there to protect your loved ones from invasion? :confused:



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: ]
    #1426600 -

[taken from another thread]

i wrote:
"The attack on 9/11 was on america, and lots of innocents died, that doesn't mean that you need to kill those responsible behind it, but rather find out why the attack was made and resolve the problem."


   
     
YOu wrote:
Ho ho ho ho he he he he ha ha ha ha

[Doubles over in laughter]

OMG!!! That is too funny!!!

Um yeah, right.

Typical liberal idiocy.

Whose playbook are you reading from son?

Daschle? Herr Clinton? Heiress Klinton?

Wow!

Yeah, I see your point. When we were attacked in Pearl Harbor there should have been a time of introspection. We should have immediately started wondering where we went wrong.

Tell you what. If I see you at a gathering, identify yourself so I can knock the living shit out of you so you can practice what you preach.

While your laying there on the ground with blood pouring out of your nose you can wonder what you've done wrong.

Then, and only then, will I respect that kind of sentiment.

I only pity anyone foolhardy enough to place themselves under your protection.
And I doubly pity your children if you have them or when you have them."

:grin:I wish i could be as wise and smart as mr.mushrooms! ....
didn't you just say this war is not ww2 or pearl harbour? :smirk: Yet you compare my statment on this war to pearl harbour!

Defend your points instead of talking your terminology.  You seem to think your point of veiw is correct, and yet you contradict yourself.  I was disapointed when i read this post, and found out it was from you!
:tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1426623 -

Answer to first post:

I wasn't precise enough in my statement and I hoped it wouldn't cause confusion.

I did not mean I would have enlisted to fight this war, nor would I have.

But, and here is all the difference in the world, I would have enlisted in the Armed Services in order to serve my country and protect the ones I love.

I am too old for military service but when I was 17 I tried to enlist in the Marines. I was 4F because they found testicular cancer. That ended any chance I had to serve my country.

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1426639 -

Answer to post two:

Which war are we talking about here?

The War against Iraq is neither WW II nor Vietnam.  I do not think we have enough evidence to be in that war.

As a broad principle any country has a right to defend itself.  You seem to indicate that we shouldn't retaliate against the perpetrators of 9/11.  I

I completely disagree.  In fact, had it been a country that flew planes into the Pentagon and the WTC I wouldn't have nuked them.  Seriously.

Should we defend ourselves against those who attack us?  My answer is an unqualifiable YES!

So, if you read what I wrote closely there is no inconsistency except for the confusion I caused by not being precise about my enlistment.

But at least you are reading closely.  That's good!  Keep it up! :smile:

Cheers,

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: ]
    #1426670 -

Quote:
Answer to first post:

I wasn't precise enough in my statement and I hoped it wouldn't cause confusion.

I did not mean I would have enlisted to fight this war, nor would I have.

But, and here is all the difference in the world, I would have enlisted in the Armed Services in order to serve my country and protect the ones I love.

I am too old for military service but when I was 17 I tried to enlist in the Marines. I was 4F because they found testicular cancer. That ended any chance I had to serve my country.


ok, thanks for clarifying. I wonder what veiws you would have had you been allowed to "serve your country". See i dont beleive in military. If my home were under attack i would defend it, but not by joining the military......i guess our veiws of the "military" are as different as black and white, but you come from a country that prides itself on military capabilities, and come from one which basically has no military....


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: ]
    #1426692 -

Quote:
Answer to post two:

Which war are we talking about here?


Iraq war....i think....now im confused... :confused:

Quote:
As a broad principle any country has a right to defend itself.  You seem to indicate that we shouldn't retaliate against the perpetrators of 9/11.  I


Retaliate?! no!  Respond, yes.  Retaliation wont solve anything, but will allow for more attacks.  why is the middle east so against the US...where does this stem from....what actions may be taken to defend the US against further attacks....questions like that will help resolve this issue.


Quote:
I completely disagree.  In fact, had it been a country that flew planes into the Pentagon and the WTC I wouldn't have nuked them.  Seriously.



Realy?!, but you'd go after the governmental regime right?

Quote:
Should we defend ourselves against those who attack us?  My answer is an unqualifiable YES!



But retaliation is not always the best means to accomplish these goals.  You can defend yourselfes best by working to solve the problem.

Thanks for the reading compliment....must be hooked on phonics.... :wink:

gotta go....off work....sorry,if this doesn't make sense, didn't have time to pre read.

peace :smile:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: Aldous]
    #1426839 -

Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Do you think everyone who joins the armed forces do so with the intent on being sent into an unjustified war?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, see this thread.


Ok, so you feel this guy is a hero because he disagrees with the war and won't fight. I won't say he's a hero, there's nothing heroic about that. Do I think he's right, yeah, I don't agree with the war either.

So by this logic, you feel that all the other people that are fighting in this war signed up to be in the armed forces with the intent of fighting in an unjustifiable war?

But what about the people that signed up with the same sentiment that you described right here? VVVV
Quote:
I don't know what I would do if I was an Iraqi, except fight back.




I know that some people signed up with intentions of defending America, what do you say to those people?


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: The Average U. S. Military Man [Re: ]
    #1426861 -

your saying you don't understand the difference between empathy and pity?


As for saddam defending the use of tourcher..... Uh that's great, i'm all against tourcher, but you see, when your a country that touchers, you can't use it against someone else that touchers, that's call "hiposcrasy"


--------------------
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned." -Buddha
www.impeach-bush-now.org

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