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InvisibleDarkcloud
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Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft
    #6299257 - 11/19/06 02:09 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - An influential Democratic lawmaker on Sunday called for reinstatement of the draft as a way to boost U.S. troop levels and draw a broader section of the population into the military or public service.

U.S. Rep. Charles Rangel (news, bio, voting record), the incoming chairman of the House of Representatives' tax-writing committee, said he would introduce legislation to reinstate the draft as soon as the new, Democratic-controlled Congress convenes in January.

Asked on CBS' "Face the Nation" if he was still serious about the proposal for a universal draft he raised a couple of years ago, he said, "You bet your life. Underscore serious."

"If we're going to challenge Iran and challenge North Korea and then, as some people have asked, to send more troops to Iraq, we can't do that without a draft," he said.

Rangel, who opposed the 2003 invasion of Iraq, also said he did not think the United States would have invaded Iraq if the children of members of Congress were sent to fight. He has said the U.S. fighting force is comprised disproportionately of people from low-income families and minorities.

"I don't see how anyone can support the war and not support the draft. I think to do so is hypocritical," he said.

The New York Democrat had introduced legislation to reinstate the draft in January 2003 before the Iraq invasion. The
Pentagon has said the all-volunteer army is working well and there is no need for a draft, and the idea had no traction in the Republican-led Congress.

Democrats gained control of both the House and Senate for the first time in 12 years in the November 7 election, and a wholesale change in the leadership of Congress is to be made in January. Rangel is to head the House Ways and Means Committee, which is charged with U.S. tax and trade legislation.

The draft was in place from 1948 to 1973, when the United States converted to an all-volunteer army. But almost all men living in the United States - including most male noncitizens - are required to register with the Selective Service upon reaching 18, and federal benefits, including financial aid for college studies, are contingent on registration.

Rangel said his legislation on the draft would also offer the alternative of a couple of years of public service with educational benefits.





I don't think this will pass...but who knows?

Source:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061119/pl_nm/usa_politics_draft_dc


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Darkcloud]
    #6299271 - 11/19/06 02:26 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

im all for it...

then again, im exempt  :smile:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Darkcloud]
    #6299273 - 11/19/06 02:29 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

A repeat of his same nonsense from two+ years ago. No chance at all.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Darkcloud]
    #6299735 - 11/19/06 06:30 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Darkcloud said:
Quote:


The Pentagon has said the all-volunteer army is working well and there is no need for a draft,








:rofl2:
well, no actually more like  :sad:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6300658 - 11/19/06 11:14 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Yeah, but zap, you can't say you weren't warned. People (some in this very forum, as I recall) told you in 2004 that if you voted for Bush, before you knew it there'd be moves to bring back the draft. And sure enough, you voted for Bush and now there is a push to bring back the draft.

It's all your fault.




Phred


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Darkcloud]
    #6300699 - 11/19/06 11:24 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

I think what's hypocritical is complaining that people paid to be in the armed services shouldn't have to fight if called upon to do so.

Why are we sending checks to reservists and enlistees every month if we're just going to hold a draft before going to war?


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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Economist]
    #6300908 - 11/20/06 12:21 AM (14 years, 12 days ago)

If we had a draft that equally takes kids from rich republican families, Bush would have never started the Iraq war. A draft is much fairer.
RR


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Darkcloud]
    #6300963 - 11/20/06 12:36 AM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Who on earth is stupid enough to propose a draft when the only real troop shortage is a result of refusing to deploy more of the troops that we already have?

Have we started pulling out politicians out of special-ed classes? Did I inadvertently vote for someone who wears a bicycle helmet 24/7?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6300971 - 11/20/06 12:40 AM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

A draft is much fairer.




You have a very odd definition of "fair".

With an all-volunteer military, someone who wants to be a soldier can apply and -- if accepted -- become one, while someone who has no wish to be a soldier is in no danger of becoming one. How much fairer can you get?




Phred


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Phred]
    #6301711 - 11/20/06 05:50 AM (14 years, 12 days ago)

> Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft

Somehow, when I read the above, I see a motive of: "Hey, look at me! I'm on top of the world! We won the election. Hey! Pay attention to me! Start the draft. Look at me! Hey! Woohoo! We won! Look at me! Lookie lookie lookie!!! Damnit, pay attention to me! Woohoo! We Won, we won!"

... in other words, he is using the threat of "draft legislation", something that has no hope in the world of passing, as a tool to get people to talk about the issue. Of course, when the enemy uses fear as a tool, we call it terrorism.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Seuss]
    #6302038 - 11/20/06 10:51 AM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Even Rangel says in print and on television that he knows this has no chance of passing and that its just a publicity stunt...


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If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Phred]
    #6302142 - 11/20/06 11:42 AM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

A draft is much fairer.




You have a very odd definition of "fair".

With an all-volunteer military, someone who wants to be a soldier can apply and -- if accepted -- become one, while someone who has no wish to be a soldier is in no danger of becoming one. How much fairer can you get?




Phred




Take a look at where the military actively recruits. It's not in the rich neighborhoods, but in the poor ones. A few patriotic young people enlist regardless of their financial status, but the overwhelming majority of new soldiers join for financial reasons because of the sad state of the economy. It beats working at wal-mart.

A draft would spread the burden around. There should be few reasons for exceptions so people like dick cheney wouldn't be able to avoid the draft by enrolling in college.

It's hard to argue that bush or the congress would have rushed into Iraq if any of their own sons or daughters were in the active military.
RR


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6302366 - 11/20/06 01:04 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Take a look at where the military actively recruits. It's not in the rich neighborhoods, but in the poor ones.




If by that you mean recruiting offices are located in neighborhoods where the rent for office space is more reasonable than in some gated community, I won't disagree. So what?

You do realize there is also recruiting going on at college campuses, do you not? I'm sure you will recognize that the average college student comes from a wealthier background and has more opportunities than your average high school dropout. As a matter of fact, you do realize that the military has for a very long time now made the possession of a high school diploma (or GED) a mandatory requirement for acceptance into the military, so the high school dropouts don't qualify.

Quote:

...the overwhelming majority of new soldiers join for financial reasons because of the sad state of the economy.




Assumes two "facts" not in evidence... that the primary motive for joining the military is to maximize earnings, and that the US economy is in a "sad state". In actual fact, the US economy is as strong as it's ever been for at least the last three years.

Quote:

It's hard to argue that bush or the congress would have rushed into Iraq if any of their own sons or daughters were in the active military.




It is easy to argue they would have, since arguing they wouldn't have is sheer speculation. And of course, several members of Congress who voted in favor of the resumption of hostilities in Iraq do have family members in the military.



Phred


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6302433 - 11/20/06 01:26 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
A few patriotic young people enlist regardless of their financial status, but the overwhelming majority of new soldiers join for financial reasons because of the sad state of the economy.  It beats working at wal-mart.




:lol:

The only difference between the military and Wal*Mart is that there is a greater amount of opportunity in the military, at a greater risk, of course. Your phrase "it beats working at Wal*Mart" is so generalized and unspecific that you couldn't possibly know what you are talking about in regards to Wal*Mart.

:levitate:


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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Phred]
    #6302441 - 11/20/06 01:29 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

You are only kidding yourself if you believe this stuff.

You think many(over 50%) of the new recruits in the US military would sign up if they had money? I know I can't prove it, but I would be willing to bet my savings on the fact they wouldn't.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Darkcloud]
    #6302631 - 11/20/06 02:37 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

I think it would be a great idea from the standpoint that future presidents would be unlikely to become involved in unnecessary wars like Iraq if they knew there would be a firestorm of controversy from the outset. Just look at the size and passion of the anti-war movement during Vietnam- a place Bush coincidently just visited.

There are relatively few sons and daughters of congressmen fighting in Iraq and our so-called leadership consists of chicken hawks like Bush and Cheney. If they feel so stirringly patriotic about wars like Iraq and Vietnam then they should get their asses over there when they have the chance. Put up or shut up. Instead, many get the impression of an elite sending young people to fight wars to benefit their pocketbooks.

If a draft ever came everyone will see how many suburbanite conservatives with "Support Our Troops" stickers on their SUVs suddenly turn tail and begin running to the peace rallies or get deferrments.

As far as using more troops from the existing pool- there are not enough of them. We have about half a million ground troops available which are either in Iraq, on the way back, or on the way there.

Recruiting has been a problem. They have had to lower the bar to meet their quotas. On Anderson Cooper last week they sent young people undercover with cameras into recruiting offices. The majority used some form of deception to sign the recruits. Some were told there was no chance they would see combat. Some were told how to beat drug tests. Others were told there was no war at all- it is a media creation. Disgusting.


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Edited by zorbman (11/20/06 03:00 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Phred]
    #6302692 - 11/20/06 02:57 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

> Take a look at where the military actively recruits. It's not in the rich neighborhoods, but in the poor ones.

In the areas I have lived, the recruiting centers were located near post offices and motor vehicle departments... places that people tend to visit more than poor places.

I was very actively recruited when I was in high school... to the point where we had officers from the Navy coming to dinner trying to talk me into signing. (Un)fortunately, I had my eyes set on Colorado Springs rather than Annapolis. They recruited at my high school, which was where the "rich kids" went. They recruited at my college as well. In my experience the military recruiters do not target the poor, but rather anybody and everybody that might sign.

> You think many(over 50%) of the new recruits in the US military would sign up if they had money?

So what? You think the military should not only be volunteer, but also not pay? Maybe we should charge soldiers for the honor of protecting the constitution? In my experience, most people wouldn't bother to go to work if they had money... why the military should be any different, I don't know...

> The majority used some form of deception to sign the recruits.

The father of one of the women I dated in college had been an Army recruiter. When the recruiters started trying to sign his daughter, he went ballistic on them. The tirade went something like, "I used to be an Army recruiter and I know what you do and how you do it. Don't you ever talk to my daughter again..." I have no doubt that they stretch the bounds of ethical recruiting. However, I don't think they target minorities... at least, not from the standpoint of racism.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Darkcloud]
    #6303142 - 11/20/06 05:14 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

If a draft were to be instated, would all people who claimed that they used drugs be refused for service?


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Darkcloud]
    #6303434 - 11/20/06 06:52 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

This seems appropiate justice. The left vote the Dems into power and the Dems draft them into the neocon's plan to exterminate muslims.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Luddite]
    #6303467 - 11/20/06 07:12 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

After seeing most of the internet practically destroyed by the psychotic Bush haters, I'm enjoying seeing the other political party talking about drafting the Bush haters into the military.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6304307 - 11/20/06 11:56 PM (14 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
If we had a draft that equally takes kids from rich republican families, Bush would have never started the Iraq war. A draft is much fairer.
RR



I just don't understand this point.

What are we paying the members of the army for? Is it really just another welfare program and nobody told me?

If you signed up for the army, and you have recieved paychecks, then the "fair" thing to do is your job.

Can you imagine if the garbage collectors of the world suddenly called for a draft in order to collect garbage, but still wanted to keep their paychecks? Or how about the Walmart employees?

When you sign up for the military you are getting a very good deal, you take the risk that there may be a conflict in which you may die, and in exchange you get life-long benefits, a paycheck that requires very little skill or knowledge, and in many cases housing.

The current unemployment rate in the US is 4.4%, and it was even lower in 2000 when some of the people who are currently in Iraq chose to sign up.

If we had an unemployment rate of 8 or 10%, maybe the arguments about the poor would make more sense. But, last I checked, Walmart, McDonalds, and the Gap are all still hiring.

You can even get money for college without going through the army. I know because I did it. Sallie Mae will gladly give you a loan regardless of you or your parents wealth.

So, in a country where anyone is free to take other, safer, low-paying jobs, and there are, again safer, alternate methods of getting money for college, why should we not expect army recruits to do the job they signed up for and are paid to do?


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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Economist]
    #6321053 - 11/30/06 12:36 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

Don't distort my words. What I said has nothing to do with the soldiers doing their jobs, which they do well. I come from a military family and both of my sons have served in Afghanistan and Iraq, with my younger son seriously wounded in combat in Fallujah.

I said a draft would spread the burden around to the rich as well as the poor. It's wrong to look at the military as a 'job'. It should be a duty, just like voting, which half the population seems to ignore as well. My kids grew up with living standards that many would consider 'rich', but still joined the military out of patriotism. However, the overwhelming majority of the soldiers they served with joined up out of desperation, which is the wrong reason to join.
RR


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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6321438 - 11/30/06 03:12 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
A draft would spread the burden around.  There should be few reasons for exceptions so people like dick cheney wouldn't be able to avoid the draft by enrolling in college.

It's hard to argue that bush or the congress would have rushed into Iraq if any of their own sons or daughters were in the active military.
RR



Not true. Remember, when we invaded Iraq, everybody thought Saddam had WMDs and public support for the invasion was over 80%. Support for the war was, and remains, strongest among people with ties to the military.

In another post, you stated:
Quote:

It's wrong to look at the military as a 'job'. It should be a duty, just like voting, which half the population seems to ignore as well. My kids grew up with living standards that many would consider 'rich', but still joined the military out of patriotism. However, the overwhelming majority of the soldiers they served with joined up out of desperation, which is the wrong reason to join.



Do you realize you are advocating taking away the right of individuals to choose to improve their standard of living through service to their country? It's ironic that your sons were fighting for the freedom to make life's decisions for ourselves.

Having said that, I support one step beyond the draft... mandatory military service for all. 6 months, a year, two years, something like that. Everyone must serve, and everyone is an equal for the time they are in the military. Yes, even Paris Hilton and Nicole Ritchie, but not in the same unit. :laugh: After the period of mandatory service is complete, people could go back to their normal life or continue with a career in the military. Their choice.

I think this sort of policy would have huge benefits:
- Improve support for our military
- Reduce tolerance for military inefficiencies
- During war, shortages of armor and weapons just wouldn't be tolerated
- Scapegoating/lynching of soldiers, such as Lynndie England, wouldn't be tolerated
- Less tolerance of military abuses of power
- Improvements in education and patriotism in the general population

We would still go to war from time to time, but it would always be to win, and the soldiers who fight the battles would get the respect and appreciation they deserve.


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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6321482 - 11/30/06 03:28 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:It should be a duty, just like voting, which half the population seems to ignore as well.


Voting is a right, not a duty. People who do not have a solid understanding of the candidates and issues should not be voting. This American is grateful that the ininformed half of the population at least had the good sense not to vote.

It really irks me that my tax dollars go to those stupid get-out-the-vote campaigns.
Quote:

Make sure you vote! It doesn't matter who or what you vote for! Pick the name with the most letters! Or the fewest, it doesn't matter! As long as you vote! Thanks for voting, Mr Clueless American. :wink:




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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: pokermush]
    #6321901 - 11/30/06 05:53 PM (14 years, 2 days ago)

well, it isn't that unreasonable to advocate service in the military as a citizen's duty.

There are nations that do that (I beleive Switzerland requires men to serve a certain amount of time in the military), and overall it manages to be good for the nation.

It's not necessarily a bad idea, but it doesn't fit in with America's principles of government and it conflicts with the freedom of choice of it's people. Also, Our military spending is already grossly excessive and (in some cases) intentionally wasteful. Further expansion of the military would probably just compound this problem which is already rather serious.

All things considered, there is nothing more reasonable than having an all-volunteer military. You can come up with whatever arguments you want about underlying injustices and whatnot... but the fact remains that nothing is more reasonable than a military composed solely of people who willingly agreed to be soldiers. The area of truthfulness from recruiters needs a lot of improvement, but other than that our system seems to work quite well.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6325177 - 12/01/06 08:01 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

I said a draft would spread the burden around to the rich as well as the poor.




Nope. Rich kids go to college. You would be drafting the poor and uneducated.


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