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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6304307 - 11/20/06 11:56 PM (14 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
If we had a draft that equally takes kids from rich republican families, Bush would have never started the Iraq war. A draft is much fairer.
RR



I just don't understand this point.

What are we paying the members of the army for? Is it really just another welfare program and nobody told me?

If you signed up for the army, and you have recieved paychecks, then the "fair" thing to do is your job.

Can you imagine if the garbage collectors of the world suddenly called for a draft in order to collect garbage, but still wanted to keep their paychecks? Or how about the Walmart employees?

When you sign up for the military you are getting a very good deal, you take the risk that there may be a conflict in which you may die, and in exchange you get life-long benefits, a paycheck that requires very little skill or knowledge, and in many cases housing.

The current unemployment rate in the US is 4.4%, and it was even lower in 2000 when some of the people who are currently in Iraq chose to sign up.

If we had an unemployment rate of 8 or 10%, maybe the arguments about the poor would make more sense. But, last I checked, Walmart, McDonalds, and the Gap are all still hiring.

You can even get money for college without going through the army. I know because I did it. Sallie Mae will gladly give you a loan regardless of you or your parents wealth.

So, in a country where anyone is free to take other, safer, low-paying jobs, and there are, again safer, alternate methods of getting money for college, why should we not expect army recruits to do the job they signed up for and are paid to do?


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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: Economist]
    #6321053 - 11/30/06 12:36 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

Don't distort my words. What I said has nothing to do with the soldiers doing their jobs, which they do well. I come from a military family and both of my sons have served in Afghanistan and Iraq, with my younger son seriously wounded in combat in Fallujah.

I said a draft would spread the burden around to the rich as well as the poor. It's wrong to look at the military as a 'job'. It should be a duty, just like voting, which half the population seems to ignore as well. My kids grew up with living standards that many would consider 'rich', but still joined the military out of patriotism. However, the overwhelming majority of the soldiers they served with joined up out of desperation, which is the wrong reason to join.
RR


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Offlinepokermush
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6321438 - 11/30/06 03:12 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
A draft would spread the burden around.  There should be few reasons for exceptions so people like dick cheney wouldn't be able to avoid the draft by enrolling in college.

It's hard to argue that bush or the congress would have rushed into Iraq if any of their own sons or daughters were in the active military.
RR



Not true. Remember, when we invaded Iraq, everybody thought Saddam had WMDs and public support for the invasion was over 80%. Support for the war was, and remains, strongest among people with ties to the military.

In another post, you stated:
Quote:

It's wrong to look at the military as a 'job'. It should be a duty, just like voting, which half the population seems to ignore as well. My kids grew up with living standards that many would consider 'rich', but still joined the military out of patriotism. However, the overwhelming majority of the soldiers they served with joined up out of desperation, which is the wrong reason to join.



Do you realize you are advocating taking away the right of individuals to choose to improve their standard of living through service to their country? It's ironic that your sons were fighting for the freedom to make life's decisions for ourselves.

Having said that, I support one step beyond the draft... mandatory military service for all. 6 months, a year, two years, something like that. Everyone must serve, and everyone is an equal for the time they are in the military. Yes, even Paris Hilton and Nicole Ritchie, but not in the same unit. :laugh: After the period of mandatory service is complete, people could go back to their normal life or continue with a career in the military. Their choice.

I think this sort of policy would have huge benefits:
- Improve support for our military
- Reduce tolerance for military inefficiencies
- During war, shortages of armor and weapons just wouldn't be tolerated
- Scapegoating/lynching of soldiers, such as Lynndie England, wouldn't be tolerated
- Less tolerance of military abuses of power
- Improvements in education and patriotism in the general population

We would still go to war from time to time, but it would always be to win, and the soldiers who fight the battles would get the respect and appreciation they deserve.


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Offlinepokermush
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6321482 - 11/30/06 03:28 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:It should be a duty, just like voting, which half the population seems to ignore as well.


Voting is a right, not a duty. People who do not have a solid understanding of the candidates and issues should not be voting. This American is grateful that the ininformed half of the population at least had the good sense not to vote.

It really irks me that my tax dollars go to those stupid get-out-the-vote campaigns.
Quote:

Make sure you vote! It doesn't matter who or what you vote for! Pick the name with the most letters! Or the fewest, it doesn't matter! As long as you vote! Thanks for voting, Mr Clueless American. :wink:




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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: pokermush]
    #6321901 - 11/30/06 05:53 PM (14 years, 4 days ago)

well, it isn't that unreasonable to advocate service in the military as a citizen's duty.

There are nations that do that (I beleive Switzerland requires men to serve a certain amount of time in the military), and overall it manages to be good for the nation.

It's not necessarily a bad idea, but it doesn't fit in with America's principles of government and it conflicts with the freedom of choice of it's people. Also, Our military spending is already grossly excessive and (in some cases) intentionally wasteful. Further expansion of the military would probably just compound this problem which is already rather serious.

All things considered, there is nothing more reasonable than having an all-volunteer military. You can come up with whatever arguments you want about underlying injustices and whatnot... but the fact remains that nothing is more reasonable than a military composed solely of people who willingly agreed to be soldiers. The area of truthfulness from recruiters needs a lot of improvement, but other than that our system seems to work quite well.


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I find your lack of faith disturbing


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Senior Democrat Renews Call for Military Draft [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6325177 - 12/01/06 08:01 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

I said a draft would spread the burden around to the rich as well as the poor.




Nope. Rich kids go to college. You would be drafting the poor and uneducated.


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