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vintage_gonzo
Stranger

Registered: 04/08/06
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5567923 - 04/28/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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you seem to think that because there would be mandatory service that suddenly there would be all of these wars and every single person would see action. we are already in a pointless war and there is no draft, actually if there was a draft maybe troop levels in iraq would have been higher and we would be out of there by now. but im sure in your neocon brain the war is going perfect over there. now try to understand this, mandatory service would be for TWO FUCKING YEARS. if you cant handle that then you are a fucking pussy who needs to be weeded out of the gene pool. some people would not like a draft, but for a vast majority it would do very good. why do you think they have boot camps for young fuckups? to add structure and get their spoiled ass in line.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: vintage_gonzo]
#5568047 - 04/28/06 07:13 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
vintage_gonzo said: you seem to think that because there would be mandatory service that suddenly there would be all of these wars and every single person would see action.
I don't think anything of the kind nor have I ever expressed anything remotely to that effect
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we are already in a pointless war
No we are not
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and there is no draft, actually if there was a draft maybe troop levels in iraq would have been higher and we would be out of there by now.
Brilliant military analysis by.......who again? Although there have been several military people who thought we should have more boots I have not heard of any military person supporting a draft. They all know that conscripts suck as soldiers.
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but im sure in your neocon brain the war is going perfect over there.
Only children ever think a war will go perfectly. I think it is going about as well as could have been expected, in some ways better, some ways worse.
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now try to understand this, mandatory service would be for TWO FUCKING YEARS.
Two too many, you fascist.
Quote:
if you cant handle that then you are a fucking pussy who needs to be weeded out of the gene pool.
Fuck you, you flaming little........I have too many bans already to respond appropriately to this moronic attack by someone completely ignorant of me. Let's just say that I haven't been called a pussy to my face for quite some time. You, on the other hand have quite a big bitchy mouth for somebody who A. Doesn't know me and B. Is hiding behind a keyboard. So shut the fuck up.
Quote:
some people would not like a draft, but for a vast majority it would do very good.
Who the fuck are you to decide? Some 20 year old never done nothing or dealt with anything fool ready to tell everybody else how they oughta act? Kiss my ring. I got an idea. I'LL decide what's good for everybody else. Judging from your grammar and the content of your thought, I'm way more qualified than you.Quote:
Quote:
why do you think they have boot camps for young fuckups? to add structure and get their spoiled ass in line.
So much stupidity here. Are people who join all fuckups? Do fuckups join? Is the harshness of bootcamp to help fuckups to improve or to weed them out? Do we want fuckups in the military? When there was a draft that is what we got in far too great a percentage, people who didn't want to be there.
In the end, you are a fascist who wants to dictate what other people should do. You will never win. We know what you are.
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vintage_gonzo
Stranger

Registered: 04/08/06
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5568167 - 04/28/06 07:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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first off the you was a general you all, it was not directed to you so you can calm down. secondly, im too tired from work to make a counter point yet, ill get to it tomorrow.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: vintage_gonzo]
#5568205 - 04/28/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I accept, personally and only personally, your seeming apology for this:
Quote:
"if you cant handle that then you are a fucking pussy who needs to be weeded out of the gene pool."
Some other board members may not do the same
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5569314 - 04/29/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"if you cant handle that then you are a fucking pussy who needs to be weeded out of the gene pool."
i agree, if you cant handle 2 years in the military, you are a fucking pussy. but also, there is a need for people who oppose the military, for the simple fact that they are needed for their alternative views.
that being said, i cant say im against mandatory service, because its a good idea. but the current administration (and probably all those to follow) are so corrupt, and fighting these rich men's wars, that mandatory military service would be a slap in the face to anyone outside of the top 5%
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: kotik]
#5569895 - 04/29/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'll die before I learn to use a gun. I want no part of an organization that sends young men to die in the desert so American businesses will profit.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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TheWay
just some dude


Registered: 10/27/05
Posts: 163
Loc: free
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: kotik]
#5571055 - 04/29/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

Registered: 02/28/06
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: TheWay]
#5572666 - 04/30/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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here's my thoughts on this subject, i would never fight in a war or attack in any kind for the simple idea that:
one of these attacks or wars is started because of a few idea's that are flawed.
nomatter what the reason to start one, we NEVER TRUELY know what happened to justifiy it. HOW can we go and kill people WITHOUT knowing WHY? the gov. might make up good storys about WHY. THEY may even believe it. BUT, we never truely know because the people who decide to attack DID NOT SEE IT.
we have eye witnesses that place murders at the scene and we don't KILL THEM we try everything we can usually to not kill them when bringing them in even if they have a gun and are shooting back.
these soilders go to iraq for instince and we are raiding their country and they assume the gov. we right about this country because they are shooting at us when we show up. I WOUNDER WHY.
we need to just stay the hell out of other peoples lifes(but the gov could never do such a thing because they love spreading slavery===$$$$)...and just worry about our borders...were we know a little better about whats going on ...somewhat. At least we can say we were defending ourselfs if anything happens.
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  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: DoctorJ]
#5572725 - 04/30/06 12:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said:
Quote:
Gijith said: The more I think about this, the more I favor it. 2 years at the age of 18, men and women. Little or no pay.
What are your guys' thoughts?
I think that putting a guy like me in the army would be a huge tactical error, as I would almost surely use whatever power the government gave me against the government at some point.
I could just see it now: Quietly moving my way up the ranks, always being a good soldier, but always remembering my true purpose. Carefully biding my time and making secret alliances with the other officers...
Then, as soon as they promote me to General, BAM! Military coup.
Now, everybody works in spaceship factories at gunpoint, sports are illegal, and scientists are the richest people on earth. All bureaucrats will be forced into a rocket that will be shot straight into the sun. All people below a certain level of intelligence will be gassed. Welcome to DoctorJ's America, bitch.
Hahaha, that would be the worst country ever - I can see it now - just a bunch of intellectual numfucks sitting around, complaining and wondering why there's no one left to clean their streets, cook their Mickey D's, work for minimum wage, and protect their houses (muscle and intelligence dont often come in a package).
And for the record, mandatory military service would only work in developed, rich countries. In all other occasions the soldiers would be just used slaves to build military establishments for free.
And I'm glad that drafting is highly unpopular in the States. In a national emergency, such as a foreign nation invasion, yes, I would not only serve, but die for this country. But if, say, the draft were initiated as of today, I would burn my draft card the day I received it. I'm not dying for some non-existent WMDs, oil reserves, or any other horseshit the Bush Administration dishes out next.
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mungojerry
free as a bird

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Fospher]
#5575087 - 04/30/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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ok man there is nothing wrong with having pride for your country and if someone is attacking your country i see nothing wrong with defence but i think the military in general is a bit brain washing im speakin only from personal experience but the ppl ive know to go to the military came out being narrow minded conservative uptight douche bags.....i know some ppl out there feel the same way i do, that the miltiary state of mind sucks and that its the farthest thing away from expanding your mind and being peacful so why should we be forced out of our lives to some form of inprisonment?.....I AM FREE AS A FUCKIN BRID MAN and wouldnt trade my freedom for anything, i have no desire to learn about war tactics and how to fire a gun and work together......i hope that once we evolve to our next species of humans we will se no point to killing each other.....but i think right now we just got to much animal in us.... kill or be killed
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OJK
Stranger

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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: mungojerry]
#5575234 - 04/30/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I am genuinely astounded by some of the views voiced in this thread.
I admit, there is a massive difference between compulsory service of any kind for children and adults. There is a potential argument for compulsory service of some kind for children.
If we can assume that most people accept the need for compulsory education for children, we should examine its purpose.
Why is education in many developed countries compulsory for children? Well, firstly, because the state recognises that children lack the mental ability to exercise true freedom of choice - i.e. the same reason children are often not granted the same rights as adults, such as being able to drive a vehicle or consume certain substances. The state decrees on behalf of those children that an education is in their own interest, as it divines the children are not in a position to decide whether or not they desire to be educated from an informed point of view.
Secondly, the state recognises children's partial autonomy from their parents. While it is often the legal duty of parents to in part educate their own children, that duty is limited in scope. The state recognises that children have rights independent of their parents. If their parents are judged by the state to be acting illegally towards their child by, for example, assaulting them, the state may remove the child from the parent's custody to protect the child's rights. On a wider level, therefore, the state proscribes mandatory child education as it recognises the right of the child to be educated to a certain level on a certain range of topics regardless of parental will, and it cannot guarantee that parents will provide a balanced education by themselves.
The state decides on the form that education should take by assembling a generally accepted curriculum that is seen as positive, helpful, informative, and generally in the child's best interests. However, the curriculum is also assembled to recognised the impressionableness of children. Generally, facts are only presented as facts where they are generally accepted as facts, and opinions are encouraged to be questioned.
On this level, then, it may be acceptable to include mandatory service of some kind. A period of work experience, for example, is fairly common, as it is generally accepted that the skills employed in the typical workplace will be of benefit to a child in later life. A period of military training would be unsuitable for many reasons, not least that it is not generally accepted that the skills of the military, inextricably mixed with violence as they are (and regardless of the justification of that violence or otherwise) as a result of the military's ultimate purpose (defence or aggression through violence) and violence has no place being taught to impressionable children, unable as they are to fully assess it's utility or justification.
So, there may be some argument for a short period of some kind of mandatory service for children of the sort that is generally regarded by society as positive and useful in nature (child care, social work, etc.) provided there is scope for the questioning of it's validity.
However, as soon as that child is legally regarded as an adult, there is absolutely no justification for compulsory education of any kind, regardless of what society deems positive. The very justification of compulsory child education is to provide a person with the relevant skills and knowledge to make decisions for themselves - otherwise it is nothing more than propagandist indoctrination and the very antithesis of freedomm and, indeed, education. To attempt to foist education on an adult is to destroy the only justification for compulsory education for children - the building of knowledge and intelligence to achieve true freedom of will.
In other words, to force adults to participate in any kind of mandatory service because it is perceived as being in their own best interests is the very destruction of freedom, regardless of how much it might in fact benefit them (or at least be seen to benefit them by society in general).
For the state to force a person of, say, inferior physical fitness and below-average social skills into a program of mandatory military service is utterly intolerable, even if the result is an athletic and socially confident individual. It is a perversion of freedom, for the attributes of fitness or confidence are not fundamentally or inherently positive, they are merely regarded as so by most of society. It is no more acceptable to force a recluse adult to develop social skills because having social skills is generally regarded as positive than it is to force an individual who enjoys taking drugs to stop taking drugs because it is generally regarded as positive to not take drugs, or to force an individual to not voice an opinion because that opinion is generally regarded as being objectionable.
It is of absolutely no interest to me how much other people may think I might benefit by serving in the army, and it is of similar levels of consequence. To force individuals to act in a certain way (with the exceptions of crime that harms others, and other such acts that harm the freedom of others)is an attack on freedom. To force individuals to act in a certain way because it is perceived that it will benefit them is no better. To force individuals to act in a certain way because it is perceived that that will change them, and that that change is regarded as positive by some kind popular will, is a desecration of freedom on a most fundamental level.
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
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Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: mungojerry]
#5575245 - 04/30/06 08:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
i hope that once we evolve to our next species of humans we will se no point to killing each other...
It's too bad that the whole premise behind evolution is survival of the fittest.
Brute enforcement of law is necessary. If you don't see why wars are needed for our survival, perhaps you should pay more attention to the things around you. Should the militia or the police try to attempt to raise the awareness of serial killers, child molesters, and murderers, or to put them in a place where they can no longer cause harm to society? If you were in a bank hold up, and the robber just took your wallet, and everything in it, would you get up and tell the robber that there is no reason for violence or call the fucking cops/put a gun to his head at the nearest chance? You tell me what's more reasonable.
Quote:
i think the military in general is a bit brain washing im speakin only from personal experience
There's no need for bias opinions, the military does brainwash each and every recruit. You think that you don't need to do a great deal of convincing to tell someone to put a rifle in their hand, run across some field out of a trench, and start killing human beings for a reason he might not even agree with?
Quote:
i have no desire to learn about war tactics and how to fire a gun and work together
That I have no quarrel with, a consientious objector who believes in what he says is worth a million shit-talking chickenhawk yuppie fucks getting out of service for anal cysts.
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: OJK]
#5575409 - 04/30/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Odiumjunkie said: I am genuinely astounded by some of the views voiced in this thread.
I admit, there is a massive difference between compulsory service of any kind for children and adults. There is a potential argument for compulsory service of some kind for children.
If we can assume that most people accept the need for compulsory education for children, we should examine its purpose.
Why is education in many developed countries compulsory for children? Well, firstly, because the state recognises that children lack the mental ability to exercise true freedom of choice - i.e. the same reason children are often not granted the same rights as adults, such as being able to drive a vehicle or consume certain substances. The state decrees on behalf of those children that an education is in their own interest, as it divines the children are not in a position to decide whether or not they desire to be educated from an informed point of view.
Secondly, the state recognises children's partial autonomy from their parents. While it is often the legal duty of parents to in part educate their own children, that duty is limited in scope. The state recognises that children have rights independent of their parents. If their parents are judged by the state to be acting illegally towards their child by, for example, assaulting them, the state may remove the child from the parent's custody to protect the child's rights. On a wider level, therefore, the state proscribes mandatory child education as it recognises the right of the child to be educated to a certain level on a certain range of topics regardless of parental will, and it cannot guarantee that parents will provide a balanced education by themselves.
The state decides on the form that education should take by assembling a generally accepted curriculum that is seen as positive, helpful, informative, and generally in the child's best interests. However, the curriculum is also assembled to recognised the impressionableness of children. Generally, facts are only presented as facts where they are generally accepted as facts, and opinions are encouraged to be questioned.
On this level, then, it may be acceptable to include mandatory service of some kind. A period of work experience, for example, is fairly common, as it is generally accepted that the skills employed in the typical workplace will be of benefit to a child in later life. A period of military training would be unsuitable for many reasons, not least that it is not generally accepted that the skills of the military, inextricably mixed with violence as they are (and regardless of the justification of that violence or otherwise) as a result of the military's ultimate purpose (defence or aggression through violence) and violence has no place being taught to impressionable children, unable as they are to fully assess it's utility or justification.
So, there may be some argument for a short period of some kind of mandatory service for children of the sort that is generally regarded by society as positive and useful in nature (child care, social work, etc.) provided there is scope for the questioning of it's validity.
However, as soon as that child is legally regarded as an adult, there is absolutely no justification for compulsory education of any kind, regardless of what society deems positive. The very justification of compulsory child education is to provide a person with the relevant skills and knowledge to make decisions for themselves - otherwise it is nothing more than propagandist indoctrination and the very antithesis of freedomm and, indeed, education. To attempt to foist education on an adult is to destroy the only justification for compulsory education for children - the building of knowledge and intelligence to achieve true freedom of will.
In other words, to force adults to participate in any kind of mandatory service because it is perceived as being in their own best interests is the very destruction of freedom, regardless of how much it might in fact benefit them (or at least be seen to benefit them by society in general).
For the state to force a person of, say, inferior physical fitness and below-average social skills into a program of mandatory military service is utterly intolerable, even if the result is an athletic and socially confident individual. It is a perversion of freedom, for the attributes of fitness or confidence are not fundamentally or inherently positive, they are merely regarded as so by most of society. It is no more acceptable to force a recluse adult to develop social skills because having social skills is generally regarded as positive than it is to force an individual who enjoys taking drugs to stop taking drugs because it is generally regarded as positive to not take drugs, or to force an individual to not voice an opinion because that opinion is generally regarded as being objectionable.
It is of absolutely no interest to me how much other people may think I might benefit by serving in the army, and it is of similar levels of consequence. To force individuals to act in a certain way (with the exceptions of crime that harms others, and other such acts that harm the freedom of others)is an attack on freedom. To force individuals to act in a certain way because it is perceived that it will benefit them is no better. To force individuals to act in a certain way because it is perceived that that will change them, and that that change is regarded as positive by some kind popular will, is a desecration of freedom on a most fundamental level.
This is why America will soon fall.
This is why America is weak.
People are too scared, too weak minded, they fail to see the power of the collective.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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mungojerry
free as a bird

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: EquilibriuM]
#5576176 - 05/01/06 01:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why cant we have a good debate without bashing.....
The whole purpose of me bringing in evolution was to illustrate that we are animals, semi-civilized animals at that and was saying that far from now common sense would be in place of militia.....
but the fact of the matter is today their are a lot of killings, rapes, thefts etc. and some sort of enforcement is needed. As of now we do need a form of police, peace needs structure of some kind either by us or enforced by others. I'm not saying anarchy is the way to go. I don't oppose any military...i just think unless its an emergency I can live my life as i choose, being forced to think and join something against your will is wrong......
Patriotism is nothing more than loving where u live and we should defend it if it is threatened. America is way too strong to fall way way way to powerful, we enforce the world. America doesnt present any evidence of being the next Babylon, so many coutries have our backs.
but if i appose MANDATORY brain washing and a FORCED way to live and think I'm a "a consientious objector who believes in what he says is worth a million shit-talking chickenhawk yuppie fucks getting out of service for anal cysts. " You will never see me disrespect someone on this website, another tripper or any person who shows me the same respect. But i guess id fall into the category of those damn pot smokin tie die wearing hippies huh?
I'm nothing more than a guy who'd like to see peace my friend and the marine/army way of thinking is far from that in my experience. My opinion means dick, its not worth shit, however if my opinion changes peoples lives its a bit more significant but so far I don't have to change shit because someone in our government also feels that at 18 i have a choice what to do with my life
Eat some shrooms and try to see peace man it looks great
Edited by mungojerry (05/01/06 01:48 AM)
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mungojerry
free as a bird

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: mungojerry]
#5576217 - 05/01/06 01:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"That I have no quarrel with, a consientious objector who believes in what he says is worth a million shit-talking chickenhawk yuppie fucks getting out of service for anal cysts"
There's no need for bias opinions
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guri
Master of theimprobablitydrive

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 576
Loc: PNWish.
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Gijith]
#5576237 - 05/01/06 02:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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in america at least as long you dont break the law you are free to do what you want. if you break the law the punishment more often then not is the taking of your freedom...jail time. and of course being in jail sucks because you do not get to do what you want to do. same thing would apply to any service that is mandatory. essentially for two years you are taking away a person right to choose how to live thier life. this is a form of punishment for which no crime was commited. what happens if somebody doesnt do there two years? do they go to jail because they felt there time was better served elsewhere?
yes im sure the military could provide a lot of support and structure into the lives of some people who need it most however many people do not need this structure. also by taking a couple years away from peoples lives they will miss many oppertunities that only existed for a short amount of time.. for example my brother straight out of highschool starting working at job that made him $150,000+ a year and 6 years later now makes even more money. however if he had went to college or joined the military the job field he is in now is really hard to get into and the skills he devolped in high school would have been useless two years later. remember two years is a long span of time and a lot can happen in it, think about how the world was in january 2000 then look at how much it had changed by december 2002? one minute we were glad to see the y2k didnt kill us all or send the world back to the stone age and now its terrorists . ahhh the good ole days....
all that aside how are we suppose to set a good example of freedom for the rest of the world to follow if when you turn 18(an adult) you essentially become a slave to society for two years? "Congraluations on graduating high school. whats your plans for your future?" " i dont know...Zee chancellor hasnt told me yet"
Edited by guri (05/01/06 02:25 AM)
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trunksan
PsyChicken


Registered: 02/04/03
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: guri]
#5581798 - 05/02/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I was a black berret/tank driver. Luckily only did 6 months while most people do 24.
Loved the physical training, had fun with the guys but generally I agree with the whole "taking away your freedom" idea. It was never my choice to be there and I gave away a lot of my rights by being there. Its over now and I'm glad!
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snoopaloop53
No BetterFriend. NoWorse Friend.

Registered: 01/20/05
Posts: 311
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: trunksan]
#5581950 - 05/02/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Military service teaches people how to work. You learn how to party and drink until 3am just to get up at 6am and do your regular shit. It teaches you how to be part of a team and work towards larger goals. It gives you good stories to tell later in life. It teaches you the responsibility that most people never learn in school.
There are lots of jobs in the military that don't require you to carry a weapon and/or kill people. Just look at the Navy and Air Force there are thousands of people there who have military type jobs and don't know squat about any kind of weapon system. In the Army alone the ratio of Pog's to infantry is about 10:1. Everyone in the military exists to support the minority of infantry soldiers. There are plenty of places you can send people that will help the soldiers conducting the business of the military and that those people who don't like being there can see the benefits of working hard and seeing the hard workers rewarded so that maybe they will leave the military with some kind benefit to society.
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mungojerry
free as a bird

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: snoopaloop53]
#5582460 - 05/02/06 06:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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if u like it cool but forcing it is wrong
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: mungojerry]
#5582536 - 05/02/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
mungojerry said: if u like it cool but forcing it is wrong
mungojerry is teh man
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