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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5562183 - 04/27/06 09:43 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Don't be so bigoted. Just because it worked for you, doesn't mean it will work for everyone. Just because you needed it, doesn't mean everyone needs it.

Having an army of unwillingly conscripted soldiers is begging for a military coup.




Please name a country with mandatory military service that has had a military coup as I am not aware of any.

And no, it won't work for everyone..but it will work for the extremely vast majority.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5562233 - 04/27/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Your country - you are a part of it.



If true, so what?

Quote:

It is responsible for you - you are responsible for it.



So you've said. The question was 'why?'

Quote:

Your supposed to defend it - It is supposed to defend you.



Saying something enough times doesn't make it true. Why am I obliged to defend 'my' country?

Quote:


Granted, the way the US is run today, mandatory military service would probably be a bad thing with all the bullshit wars. However, it could also be a great thing for the US, because EVERYONE would have to serve, including the children of those who run the place. Get a senators son out there and it might change his opinion about who we should fight next.



I'm sure they'd be right on the front lines and not manning the desks in Washington.

:rolleyes:


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5562242 - 04/27/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Do you see pubic school as slavery?



I view the taxation that funds public schools as slavery. Clarify what you're asking, please. What aspects of public schools? I'll preempt your response by saying that the case of public schools is substantively different than that of conscription, and so any analogy you try to draw may be flawed.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineEvesApple
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5562256 - 04/27/06 10:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Take out the word "military" and I think you've got a good idea!


--------------------
Turn off your mind, relax and float down stream
It is not dying...It is not dying
Lay down all thought, surrender to the void
It is shining...It is shining
That you may see the meaning of within
It is being...It is being


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5562279 - 04/27/06 10:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:


Do you see pubic school as slavery?



I view the taxation that funds public schools as slavery. Clarify what you're asking, please. What aspects of public schools? I'll preempt your response by saying that the case of public schools is substantively different than that of conscription, and so any analogy you try to draw may be flawed.




I'm not so sure how different it is. Both are a learning experience, Both are forced.


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HELP!!!!!!!!!


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Invisiblebadchad
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Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5562298 - 04/27/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:

I'm not so sure how different it is. Both are a learning experience, Both are forced.




Compare how many kids have died since school started in september, versus our military casualties, and you'll see a big difference.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5562309 - 04/27/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Saying something enough times doesn't make it true. Why am I obliged to defend 'my' country?





Because you choose to live in it. Take personal responsibility. I'm not saying go fight for "democracy" in a foreign land. I'm saying defend your country - because the people in it are your people. Your family, friends, associates... You have the responsibility to do what you can to defend your country.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5562324 - 04/27/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


I'm not so sure how different it is.



The differences I had in mind were that:

(1) mandatory military service would apply to those we consider adults whereas public schooling applies to those we consider minors. The discussion of minors and their rights is a very nebulous area.

(2) while there are alternatives to public schooling (private schools, home schooling, etc), there would presumably be no such alternative(s) to mandatory military service.

Quote:

Both are a learning experience, Both are forced.



So, out of curiosity (and in the interest of saving both you and I a few pages of beating around the bush), are you for or against slavery? If you're for it, that's totally your prerogative, but I'd just like to encourage you to have the decency to be open about it. If you're ever taking a class that discusses slavery make sure to point out that you only think slavery is wrong in some cases. If you're ever casually discussing the 13th Amendment with a friend, make sure to point out that you really don't like that it places such a blanket prohibition on slavery -- tell the friend that slavery should be encouraged in quite a few situations!


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: badchad]
    #5562332 - 04/27/06 10:33 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

EquilibriuM said:

I'm not so sure how different it is. Both are a learning experience, Both are forced.




Compare how many kids have died since school started in september, versus our military casualties, and you'll see a big difference.




But thats what I'm saying would be different, the conflicts that are chosen to engage in. People see war casualties today as an acceptable loss because the military is volunteer only. This public opinion would change drastically IF military service were mandatory. Look at the statistics of military casualties of the countries I posted that have mandatory service, I assure the numbers are much lower.


--------------------
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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5562350 - 04/27/06 10:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:


I'm not so sure how different it is.



The differences I had in mind were that:

(1) mandatory military service would apply to those we consider adults whereas public schooling applies to those we consider minors. The discussion of minors and their rights is a very nebulous area.

(2) while there are alternatives to public schooling (private schools, home schooling, etc), there would presumably be no such alternative(s) to mandatory military service.

Quote:

Both are a learning experience, Both are forced.



So, out of curiosity (and in the interest of saving both you and I a few pages of beating around the bush), are you for or against slavery? If you're for it, that's totally your prerogative, but I'd just like to encourage you to have the decency to be open about it. If you're ever taking a class that discusses slavery make sure to point out that you only think slavery is wrong in some cases. If you're ever casually discussing the 13th Amendment with a friend, make sure to point out that you really don't like that it places such a blanket prohibition on slavery -- tell the friend that slavery should be encouraged in quite a few situations!




So, its OK for children to be "slaves" but not adults... besides you cant really call it slavery when you are paid to do it.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Gijith]
    #5562381 - 04/27/06 10:50 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't believe in manditory anything.

I think everyone should start or join a private millitia group.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Gijith]
    #5562392 - 04/27/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

At my advanced age, I can remember having to go to the selective service to register for the draft and then almost getting drafted based on the "birthday lottery". I had a low number that would have been drafted within a few months had Nixon not stopped the war. There was no college protection so I would have had to leave school to fight in a war that most people in this country and the world were opposed to.

Update 2006. We are almost out of volunteer troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.etc. and the need for troops in Iran Syria etc.etc.etc. is just around the corner. And, the reserves are stretched thin already with double tours. There are less people entering the reserves now based on what they see current reservists going through in Iraq.

Expect forced 2 year "patriotic service to uphold freedom" or some other catchy spin for a new draft. It will include the option for 2 year service starting at age 18-21 to be non-military but somehow they will be able to keep the numbers up in the military end of it through forced means or some kind of incentive like reduced time for risk of active duty. Do 1 year in Iraq or 2 years in Iowa. Or something like that.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5562399 - 04/27/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So, its OK for children to be "slaves" but not adults.



Never said that, at all. Merely felt the need to point out that there were differences in the examples that made them not wholly analogous. As you (like many) seem to enjoy slow playing these arguments, I felt the need to cut you off a bit before it got any further. Nowhere did I condone public schooling.

Quote:

besides you cant really call it slavery when you are paid to do it.


The fundamental component of slavery is not the compensation or lack thereof for services rendered, but rather the force, the physical violence and compulsion. If I put a gun to your head and tell you to mow my lawn, and then after you're done I give you $15, were you not just enslaved? Going to repeat myself because this is the crux of the argument (and it's something that people on this board haven't been able to grasp for years): slavery is slavery because it is involuntary, not because the slave isn't justly compensated. Just compensation is itself completely subjective. What if I put a gun to someone's head and again forced him to mow my lawn, but this time after he was done I gave him a million dollars. You might praise my magnanimity and shout down anyone who thought to criticize my use of coercion. But what if the person that I coerced was an ascetic that placed no value on my million dollars?

One last time, slavery is slavery to the extent that it is involuntary, not to the extent that the enslaved is unfairly compensated.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5562412 - 04/27/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

So, its OK for children to be "slaves" but not adults.



Never said that, at all. Merely felt the need to point out that there were differences in the examples that made them not wholly analogous. As you (like many) seem to enjoy slow playing these arguments, I felt the need to cut you off a bit before it got any further. Nowhere did I condone public schooling.

Quote:

besides you cant really call it slavery when you are paid to do it.


The fundamental component of slavery is not the compensation or lack thereof for services rendered, but rather the force, the physical violence and compulsion. If I put a gun to your head and tell you to mow my lawn, and then after you're done I give you $15, were you not just enslaved? Going to repeat myself because this is the crux of the argument (and it's something that people on this board haven't been able to grasp for years): slavery is slavery because it is involuntary, not because the slave isn't justly compensated. Just compensation is itself completely subjective. What if I put a gun to someone's head and again forced him to mow my lawn, but this time after he was done I gave him a million dollars. You might praise my magnanimity and shout down anyone who thought to criticize my use of coercion. But what if the person that I coerced was an ascetic that placed no value on my million dollars?

One last time, slavery is slavery to the extent that it is involuntary, not to the extent that the enslaved is unfairly compensated.




That is true... one things for sure here, you are good at debate...

What about the idea that you consent joining simply by remaining a citizen of the country. You know the rule of the land and are an adult, you are under no obligation to remain a citizen. If you choose to do so, then you will have to serve.


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Gijith]
    #5562416 - 04/27/06 11:08 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

mandatory military service for civilians? no, I do not support that. I do, however, support a rule that says in order to be commander in chief you must have military experience.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5562437 - 04/27/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Implicit consent is not consent at all, no matter how you dress it up.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5562752 - 04/27/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
What about the idea that you consent joining simply by remaining a citizen of the country. You know the rule of the land and are an adult, you are under no obligation to remain a citizen. If you choose to do so, then you will have to serve.




Ok. What happens if you decline "citizenship"? What rights are you giving up? Do you get deported? If so, to where?


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Rono]
    #5562760 - 04/27/06 12:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
If you can't handle basic training, you're a pussy.




So what? Some people are pussies.

You want to make that a crime?


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5562789 - 04/27/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

Rono said:
If you can't handle basic training, you're a pussy.




So what? Some people are pussies.

You want to make that a crime?




No, If you cant handle it, do some other form of community service. Humanitarian aid or something...


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Mandatory Military Service? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5562799 - 04/27/06 01:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
What about the idea that you consent joining simply by remaining a citizen of the country. You know the rule of the land and are an adult, you are under no obligation to remain a citizen. If you choose to do so, then you will have to serve.




Ok. What happens if you decline "citizenship"? What rights are you giving up? Do you get deported? If so, to where?




Fuck if I know. It's just an idea. Could be that you loose the right to vote or you don't qualify for aid programs like welfare or social security...


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