Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |  [ show all ]
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: mx4inpa]
    #13284084 -

laserpig said:
poid, i get the sense that you think i'm defending some kind of cartesian dualism

And I get the sense that you're not willing to debate with people who disagree with you on this issue--why else would you refuse to answer questions that have been repeatedly asked, or say "if you don't feel the same way, then there's really no reason to care about anything i've said"?


mx4inpa said:
You cannot measure something without changing it.

I measured my weight, and it didn't change. :shrug:


mx4inpa said:
Except for whatever being that has the ability to see it all at once.

And you think such a being exists? :ghandi:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Poid]
    #13286193 -

Poid said:
I measured my weight, and it didn't change. :shrug:


You changed space around the scale the second you got on it. You changed Earth's gravity to an outside observer. Even just by putting the scale between you and Earth your weight changed.

Sure you got a reasonably accurate weight. But it did change.

Quote:
And you think such a being exists? :ghandi:


Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know any more. There would probably only be one such being and most people would call it god.

Edited by mx4inpa (10/03/10 10:31 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: mx4inpa]
    #13289945 -

mx4inpa said:
Poid said:
I measured my weight, and it didn't change. :shrug:


You changed space around the scale the second you got on it.

So?


mx4inpa said:
You changed Earth's gravity to an outside observer.

So?


mx4inpa said:
Even just by putting the scale between you and Earth your weight changed.

What if the scale is built into the ground?


As for another example: I measured my mass, and it didn't change. :shrug:


mx4inpa said:
Quote:
And you think such a being exists? :ghandi:


Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know any more. There would probably only be one such being and most people would call it god.

Probably?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Poid]
    #13290373 -

You changed mass from something that exists as a physical reality into something that represents that physical reality.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Kickle]
    #13293163 -

No I didn't, I just created something that represents my mass (i.e. a physical reality); the act of measuring my physical mass did not change it.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Poid]
    #13293312 -

The number representing your mass is not your mass. It is a representation. So although your mass does not change, without the representation your mass just is. In order to represent it, you have to change this reality into symbols. The symbols are an abstraction of the reality.

If you are claiming the symbolic representation of mass is mass, I have to strongly disagree.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: mx4inpa]
    #13293361 -

Kickle said:
If you are claiming the symbolic representation of mass is mass, I have to strongly disagree.

I'm not claiming that at all, I am only rebutting mx4inpa's claim that you cannot measure something without changing it.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13282949#13282949
mx4inpa said:
You cannot measure something without changing it. Basic principle isnt it?



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Poid]
    #13293974 -

I agree with his statement. A measurement changes a reality into a symbolic representation of reality.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Kickle]
    #13294036 -

I would LOL if they both are wrong because they both are right



--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Kickle]
    #13295582 -

Kickle said:
A measurement changes a reality into a symbolic representation of reality.

Are you really saying that the act of measuring my mass causes my physical mass to cease to be and transforms it into a symbolic representation of reality? :what:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Poid]
    #13296218 -

No more than you are claiming the symbols of mass are mass.

The reality exists independent from the measure. What the measure does is create a symbol for this reality. Thus I do not have to personally weigh a 10 ton elephant to understand its mass. The symbol represents a reality to me.

The symbol of measurement, a ton, has fundamentally changed how I perceive an elephants mass. But it has not done so by me physically weighing the elephant and confirming this. You act as though your subjective experience of a symbol is somehow less real than your subjective experience of lifting an actual elephant. Yet both influence your understanding of an elephants mass. So although the physical reality has not changed, the direct experience of it is not necessary. Id say that's a very big change that measurement brings about. And it does so by changing a physical experience into a cognitive one.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Kickle]
    #13299909 -

Kickle said:
No more than you are claiming the symbols of mass are mass.

I'm not claiming that.


Kickle said:
The reality exists independent from the measure.

That's what I've been telling you.


Kickle said:
What the measure does is create a symbol for this reality. Thus I do not have to personally weigh a 10 ton elephant to understand its mass.

How else could you understand it?


Kickle said:
The symbol represents a reality to me.

Yes, and it doesn't change that reality. At all.


Kickle said:
The symbol of measurement, a ton, has fundamentally changed how I perceive an elephants mass.

How so?


Kickle said:
You act as though your subjective experience of a symbol is somehow less real than your subjective experience of lifting an actual elephant. Yet both influence your understanding of an elephants mass.

I'm not acting like that at all; my understanding of an elephant's mass doesn't change its mass.


Kickle said:
So although the physical reality has not changed, the direct experience of it is not necessary.

Not necessary for what?


Kickle said:
Id say that's a very big change that measurement brings about. And it does so by changing a physical experience into a cognitive one.

I'm not saying that measuring doesn't change anything at all, I'm saying that it doesn't necessarily change that which is being measured; whether or not measuring changes a physical experience into a cognitive one has nothing to do with actual physical mass itself being changed by an act of measurement.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Poid]
    #13300177 -

How does an elephants weight exist to you, except subjectively? Have you ever personally weighed an elephant? How do you know how much an elephant weighs?

The measurement is fundamental in your understanding of reality, yet it is not reality. How can this be? Perhaps reality is not as objective as your subjective mind thinks. How can you experience mass except subjectively?

Whether you experience it physically or cognitively, the same goal of experiencing mass is achieved. IMO this is two forms of the same subjective experience. To claim one is not subjective is foolish and unprovable. So if the form of this subjective experience changes, so too does measurement change what is...for us.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Kickle]
    #13300239 -

Kickle said:
How does an elephants weight exist to you, except subjectively? Have you ever personally weighed an elephant? How do you know how much an elephant weighs?

No, but I have weighed smaller objects; why did you choose to use an elephant as an example for your argument? :lol::peace:


Kickle said:
The measurement is fundamental in your understanding of reality, yet it is not reality. How can this be?

You are just providing evidence for my argument; of course the measurment isn't the same thing as what is being measured, and this is why an act of measurement doesn't necessarily change that which is being measured.

I don't know why you say "How can this be?", like it's something amazing or paradoxical or something, it seems like a pretty simple truth to me.


Kickle said:
Perhaps reality is not as objective as your subjective mind thinks. How can you experience mass except subjectively?

I am not arguing that there is definitely a such thing as an "objective reality". Think of it this way: if there are two people in a room with an elephant, and one of them measures the mass of the elephant while the other one just observes it and ignores the person doing the measuring and the measuring itself, did that act of measurement change the physical mass of the elephant for either of those people? No, it didn't; the person doing the measuring has a symbolic understanding of the elephant's mass, and the person just observing the elephant does not, but the elephant's mass is the same for both.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Poid]
    #13300469 -

The elephants mass is not the same for both. Unless you ignore the subjective side of the human experience of mass.

Id almost swear you weren't human Poid... :etjesus:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Kickle]
    #13301295 -

Kickle said:
The elephants mass is not the same for both. Unless you ignore the subjective side of the human experience of mass.

So you're arguing that an elephant doesn't have an intrinsic mass that exists separate from any human observer? You were the one who made the thread about elephants being self-aware...


Kickle said:
Id almost swear you weren't human Poid... :etjesus:

I'm so not human. :god:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Poid]
    #13303087 -

Quote:
So you're arguing that an elephant doesn't have an intrinsic mass that exists separate from any human observer?


I'm using the only definition of "change" that makes sense to me. And that is a change of experience.

So if I'm looking to answer the question of whether or not a measurement changes what it measures, I'm looking to see if I experience a change. And yep, my experience changes. Whether or not this changes a reality that exists outside of my experience is unknowable. All I have to work with is my experience, even if what I'm experiencing is potentially an objective measure. So I stick to what I can know when addressing such a question.

Because I believe my subjective experience of subjective thought to be just as real as my subjective experience of the objective... hopefully for obvious reasons.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Kickle]
    #13304692 -

Kickle said:
Quote:
So you're arguing that an elephant doesn't have an intrinsic mass that exists separate from any human observer?


I'm using the only definition of "change" that makes sense to me. And that is a change of experience.

Measuring the mass of an elephant may change your experience, but it doesn't change its intrinsic mass to itself--it is alive, and by its very nature has a certain mass, which doesn't change as a result of being measured by a human.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Poid]
    #13304723 -

What are you basing this on except your experience of the world? Anything?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: modern science and ancient mysticism are both wrong [Re: Kickle]
    #13304747 -

I'm basing it on logic--I've never seen an elephant in person, but I have seem film of elephants, so I know they exist and have mass. If it steps on a scale, its mass would be no different than it was before it did so, and will not be different afterwords; the only way its mass could change is if something causes it to lose, or gain mass. Again, the value of its mass will not change as a result of stepping on a scale, because a scale does not add or take away any mass from the elephant.

You're arguing that, to a person who measures the mass of an elephant, the act of measurement itself changes the mass in that the person's subjective understanding of its mass is transformed; this is not what I'm talking about, though, I'm talking about the value of the elephant's intrinsic mass.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (10/07/10 06:30 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Mysticism - The Ultimate Science Source 1,628 18 04/10/04 01:44 AM
by Swami
* chaos mage talking about science imstoned420 2,534 15 02/01/02 05:30 AM
by mm.
* Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?!
( 1 2 all )		 gluke bastid 3,253 36 10/11/02 10:32 AM
by Anonymous
* Why science is stupid
( 1 2 all )		 Mixomatosis 2,330 36 11/13/03 07:45 PM
by Strumpling
* Einstein A Father of Science Believed in GOD...
( 1 2 3 all )		 BleedingSickness 6,367 42 10/07/02 04:00 PM
by Zahid
* Psychedelics and mysticism Kid 2,971 16 06/30/01 07:45 PM
by davidgergen
* Ignorance and Mysticism
( 1 2 all )		 Swami 2,329 22 04/08/04 01:43 PM
by CleverName
* Is Science a form of Mythology?
( 1 2 3 all )		 Adamist 4,783 52 01/23/03 03:21 PM
by Anonymous

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,831 topic views. 2 members, 14 guests and 29 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.04 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 16 queries.