Swami said:

Please post this so that we can all experince the divine and forever end this discussion, have world peace and utopia. Thank you. If you are talking about Christian and Buddhist doctrines, they have totally failed to change the world in a positive direction. Its practitioners exhibit the same pettiness and human foibles as non-practioners.

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All of its practitioners? That is quite the generality there Swami, and I'm afraid it goes much deeper into it than that.

I think you would have to look at each individual, and how they integrated said beliefs into their life.... what they actually thought, how they looked at things.... Most spiritual paths are a way to bring someone to a point of understanding, and I don't know of a lot of people that take an honest approach to developing that understanding, or are capable of "putting it all together"....

It takes quite a long time for someone to piece together the master state of mind, so to speak... and only so many people ever end up in the position to be able to go about it. But I don't see how such pathways can be "disproven" because 99% of the people are never even aware of it or can't begin to know how to get further.

I would like to know how it is even possible to get acrossed the essence of a state of mind to someone else, let alone "test" it.

At any rate, ja, a generality that has no place in this.

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This statement is a "falacy". Science examines small pieces of the puzzle and does so remarkably well. We are communicating because of the success of science, not from ANY other method.

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For all science is worth, and it is worth a hell of a lot, I think that the fact that it examines small pieces of the puzzle and does so remarkably well is also its weakness. Sometimes said scientists and similar thinkers do so well in setting up a boundary and examining what is in it, that they have trouble thinking outside of those boundaries.

Scientists do such a good job at seperating themselves from the bigger box in order to learn from the smaller box, that they sometimes forget how it is all just one big box, and how the illusion of the smaller boxes are connected. 

It is a necessity of increasing knowledge but these boundaries are not set and the fact that it is such a powerful tool does not give it ultimateness. I also don't like saying "oh, look at all that science has done" and using that to prove some sort of point, because it isn't about that. Science is an investigation tool for hard knowledge, while said mysticism, religion (whose downfall would be taking it out of its mystical content, or something), seeking, whatever, would be more of an investigative tool for the experience side, "the state of being" knowledge....

I definitely feel as if mysticism can bring you to some understanding of life, "God", whatever. The more you increase and understanding of the nature of experience and being, the more your awareness of higher level stuff will increase. Experience and state of being are not shared and communication can only gesture vaugely. This is why mysticism would be so vauge and appear utterly useless and devoid of content to someone looking through the wrong eyes....

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And what tangible contribution has the mystic made? I can list a million (sans time and carpal tunnel syndrome)  that the scientist has made.

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Well, we could ask Buddha, Jesus, etc. about their outlook on the world and how they experienced life while they were here. What contribution mysticism had for them would be apparent to them on reflection of how their understanding had progressed over time. And if just one person used their expressions of this to increase their own understanding and were able to get just a little more, than there is even more contribution. Tangible? Not to an objective viewpoint, as the illusion of an objective viewpoint that would be established has no sense of experience of being.

However, I guess it would be possible to test it in a way, when said people interacted with the world differently after increasing their understanding with mysticism?

This isn't really Swami proof, but I am just exploring thoughts and it needs to be posted anyways. 
Peace.

Swami said:

This has been covered (seems everything is a repeat). If there was something to it on the personal level, the macro level would show some postive deviation. Child abuse, alcoholism, suicide, divorce, adultery, murder; etc. are no different between Christians and non-Christians.

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Well, I would think that there is some positive deviation. For instance, churches can produce positive effects such as a sense of community and support. It is a nexus where people collect and share the fact that they are together... it is a community. And of course their is a list of negatives that effectively balance out the positives...

We also have to consider how the people honestly seeking mysticisim and spiritual growth and "getting" most of the key messages aren't exactly going to make up a considerable group that could produce measureable change from the macro level... although if you take those people out of the equation I suspect things WOULD crumble.... they are an unnoticeable bunch that are keeping the positiveness flowing through the system.

If everything keeps repeating, maybe it is an important collection of thoughts, just that it isn't totally in the right form and needs to keep being debated and formed out. 

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Now compare joggers to non-joggers. The joggers as a group are much healthier physically than non-joggers. No excuses or spin is necessary. The results are there for ALL to see. The macro must reflect the micro.

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I don't think it is right to compare jogging to mysticism. The difference in complexity and where the change is taking place is totally different. Jogging is an easy game to learn how to play and its effects are easy to measure, as it deals with something physical (its effects on ones mental state wouldn't be as easy to measure, for example).

Mysticism, on the other hand, has to do with the complex workings of the mind, conscious and subconscious stuff, how we experience life as it presents itself, our sense of being and the meaning we take on. Not exactly as easy to measure from outside of that mind. To really develop a true understanding of the effects mysticism would be having on that person, you would basically have to be observing all of their thoughts. As far as I know, it isn't possible for one person to observe anothers thoughts.... we can only observe the way they interact with the world.... and measuring the effects mysticism had on that person from those external actions isn't going to be exactly easy.

So ja, a WORLD of difference in complexity between jogging and mysticism and the workings of ones mind...
Peace.

Swami said:

This is true, but is due to social rather than mystical factors. Old people that go to a  secular Senior Center or kids that join the Boy's/Girl's Club are better adjusted and happier.

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And pursuing mysticism can definitely make someone better adjusted and happier. For the old people and the kids going to their clubs, it is a special experience and it is treasured (generally, of course  ), and it tunes them into the experience more, which produces the better adjustments and the happiness.... mysticism could be seen as the pathway for people to open this up on their own, consciously....

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Come on FG, I am comparing external change to a practice; not jogging to mysticism. ANY practice that produces no external results is somewhat lacking wouldn't you say?

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It wouldn't be lacking if the intent was to produce internal results.

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To really develop a true understanding of the effects mysticism would be having on that person, you would basically have to be observing all of their thoughts.
Ah, so those that murder and molest children and abuse alcohol and cheat on their spouse; will be doing the EXACT SAME ACTS, but with a kinder/gentler motive and deeper understanding? That is so incredibly weak!

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Here is the thing: something efficacious doesn't require apologists like yourself to explain why the results are immeasurable and unseen.

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I don't quite know how to address this, but I will take the moment to say that I myself have sought out spiritual and mental growth and have seen and measured the changes brought about by doing so. I suspect that the day an invention is created that can allow other people to experience someone else's thoughts for study, then the results could be objectively seen and measured.
Peace.

Swami said:

Ok, polls and statistics and social studies have yet to be invented. You wore me down. You win. I'm going to crank up some tunes and have a beer.

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I'm sure polls, statistics, and social studies are the perfect method of examining the subtle, over time changes that a small minority of people in the world experience when they truly seek a pathway of "Enligthenment". 



I'm not saying that those tools could be used in some degree to try to find some change brought about by people following such a path, I am just questioning their effectiveness on this particular subject. It isn't exactly "How do you feel about the progress made by our president?"

Any progress made by someone following some sort of mysticisism has to be examined on a case-by-case basis. It is far too much a subjective thing, considering that it deals with one's mind, their thoughts and feelings and introducing new ways of thinking, and changing the way one experiences life. No poll is going to be able to be able to get to the heart of that.... one would have to experience those thoughts and that mind to be able to see any change.

Of course, external actions will be effected by change, subtly, but I don't see an effective way of measuring that.
Peace.