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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Registered: 06/12/03
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positivist trippers....let me dissect your brains
    #1666588 - 06/27/03 05:29 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

OK, you skeptical bastards -- how do you live with the dichotomy of rationalism and tripping? Does tripping have absolutely *no* metaphysical significance to you at all? Is it just hedonist brain candy? An alternative channel that you can play in your head? It's just psychological phenomena? Nothing tickles your "wow" whistle, makes you realize that you're dealing with stuff outwith the map of science?

Just curious.


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: positivist trippers....let me dissect your brains [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1666650 - 06/27/03 06:36 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

If you run into "Stuff outside the map of science" it's because your map is too small.

"Here there be dragons..." Well, maybe not- but there may well be Aztecs or something.
Truth is stranger than science fiction.

I don't believe in the supernatural, because everything that happens is by my definition a part of nature, and everything that doesn't happen, doesn't happen.

I think a lot of hardcore skeptics will explain things to their own satisfaction using scientific laws much simpler than needed to truly explain what's going on. Which can be as limiting as a worldview that resorts to aliens or angels to explain things.

On a topic like the significance of psychedelic states, the New Agers certainly have a lot more to say than the neuroscientists. Unfortunately most of them take themselves literally. As a model, and looking at all these various belief systems as flawed metaphors for some real phenomena while reading between the lines, I think they are more valuable than any reductionist / mechanistic approach toward describing the subjective.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: positivist trippers....let me dissect your brains [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1666674 - 06/27/03 06:58 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I am no logical positivist. Kurt G?del cured me of that long ago. (G?del started out as a positivist himself, by the way.) But I guess I am still a skeptical bastard so I'll try to answer.

Both science and tripping tickle my "wow" whistle :eyemouth:. I don't see the dichotomy. Tripping has helped me to see the world as less categorical and more conditioned by our interpretations, and that in turn has made me see science as more valuable than ever for making sense of all the data.

I have had my share of synchronisms and other weird stuff, but that hasn't turned me into a believer in pseudo-science or superstition. However, it has changed my understanding of the concept we call "randomness". And it has also made me less inclined to use the dismissive word "just" in phrases like "it's just psychology" or "it's just a bunch of neurons" or "it's just a collection of 1s and 0s" etc.   


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OfflineElvish
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Re: positivist trippers....let me dissect your brains [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1668243 - 06/28/03 12:16 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

or.."JUST hedonist brain candy"!!
Excuse me, Mr.WhoopDeeDooo...
but MY...
Hedonist Brain Candy
deserves some CAPITALIZATION!!

But honestly, good question. For instance...
Was that giant, yellow spider/queen ant/ alien from last night
really trying to copulate with me for my DNA?
Or was that the I-find-my-mom-sexy meme dressed up really fancy-like?
Ahhh...questions,questions everywhere...



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: positivist trippers....let me dissect your brains [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1668328 - 06/28/03 01:28 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

somebodyelse said:
Does tripping have absolutely *no* metaphysical significance to you at all? Is it just hedonist brain candy? An alternative channel that you can play in your head? It's just psychological phenomena? Nothing tickles your "wow" whistle





does there have to be metaphysical significance? can't we have our "wow whistles" tickled without relating our amazement to something "spiritual" or "supernatural"? everyone who uses these substances interprets their experiences differently, depending on the ideas, beliefs and biases(whether conscious or subconscious) they go into the experience with, and no one's experience is more important, useful or valid than anyone else's.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: positivist trippers....let me dissect your brains [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #1668577 - 06/28/03 04:07 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

One thing I don't understand is why "spiritual" so often seems to be equated with something metaphysical. What's wrong with being spiritual here in the world that we see, hear, feel, and that causes us pain and happiness, and that gives us purposes and lets us create things?


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: positivist trippers....let me dissect your brains [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1668650 - 06/28/03 04:59 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Let me address all replies in one monster post:

Quote:


If you run into "Stuff outside the map of science" it's because your map is too small.



Very true. But can science address questions of, let's say, transcendence? Isn't science's map limited to the physical? Can all trip phenomena be explained in terms of the physical?

Quote:


Both science and tripping tickle my "wow" whistle . I don't see the dichotomy. I have had my share of synchronisms and other weird stuff, but that hasn't turned me into a believer in pseudo-science or superstition.




Similar to my preceding comment ...don't we have to invoke more than mainstream science to explain some of this stuff?  I'm assuming nobody's definition of mainstream includes, for example, Transpersonal Psychology. I am not superstitious or into pseudo science either; however, I am prepared to look at a seemingly non-rational explanation for something , at least to compare it to rational attempts.  On which side of the fence would we put  chakras, for example? I've never encountered mainstream scientists incorporating chakras into descriptionns of how the body works - but subjectively speaking, the phenomena associated with chakras require an explanation, and the yogic model provides the best.

Quote:


Was that giant, yellow spider/queen ant/ alien from last night
really trying to copulate with me for my DNA?




Dude, I'd get an MRI  pronto - you've been chipped! (Just like in the matrix!) :wink: -- BTW rent the animatrix if you can - one of the shorts has a strong dimitri  thing going on.

Quote:

can't we have our "wow whistles" tickled without relating our amazement to something "spiritual" or "supernatural"?



Sure. As above, I'm not suggesting there is anything un or super natural about trip phenomena. I'm all for incorporating as much as possible into  a rationalist perspective. But, for example, just what *are* those dmt elves, or the sally ghosts? Why  do so many people have parallel experiences under these substances? Is there an objective basis to them? Can they be explained in mainstream terms? (Perhaps quantum physics' infinite universes...but this theory in itself is hardly mainstream or universally accepted).

Quote:


everyone who uses these substances interprets their experiences differently, depending on the ideas, beliefs and biases(whether conscious or subconscious) they go into the experience with, and no one's experience is more important, useful or valid than anyone else's.



Totally. There's the famous experiment where a set of christians were dosed with psychedelics in one group, and some agnostics in another. The christians saw visions of mary, jesus, etc, while the agnostics varied between aliens, elves, spirits and "all-is-one" mysticism. But, again, all (except the pure mystics) had an experience of  external entities. What are they? (As one small example)

Quote:


One thing I don't understand is why "spiritual" so often seems to be equated with something metaphysical. What's wrong with being spiritual here in the world that we see, hear, feel, and that causes us pain and happiness, and that gives us purposes and lets us create things?




You're right. I think it is Ken Wilber who starts with spirit, works through the transpersonal levels, hits the physical, and then has spirit again. Transcendence at one end, immanence at the other. But doesn't metaphysical imply talking about the transcendent end of things, i.e. the realm of spirit?









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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: positivist trippers....let me dissect your brains [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1668840 - 06/28/03 08:02 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

But doesn't metaphysical imply talking about the transcendent end of things, i.e. the realm of spirit?




When I think "spirit" I think of any kind of cause that can't be reduced to a statistical description of interactions between primitive components. Yes, in that sense I am an animist.

When I think "metaphysics" I think of the gaps in my knowledge that I sometimes fill with speculation to amuse myself. :lol:

Speculating like this is fun and healthy, as long as one remembers that it's fantasies created by the brain. Actually I indulge more in metaphysical speculation after reading a science article than during a trip. OK, make that reading a science article while smoking the herb...

According to the latest hard, cold, rational, scientific description of the world, everything consists of excitations of a 7-dimensional abstract field embedded in a 4-dimensional (intrinsically curved) spacetime. With that information, I don't need drugs to lose track of the boundary between empiricism and metaphysics, but I think it's a good thing generally to be aware of the crossing of that boundary. :laugh:

Edit: added the qualifier "latest"


Edited by Rhizoid (06/28/03 08:29 AM)


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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: positivist trippers....let me dissect your brains [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1669087 - 06/28/03 11:15 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm a very spiritual/religious person.  Psychedelics to me are simply chemicals that affect my mind/consciousness.  I see them as tools that can help you relate to your own perceptions...but I don't believe they're inherently spiritual or magical.  Sugar makes things taste sweeter...cause and effect.  Doesn't mean sugar is the "god molecule."  Same with psychedelics in my eyes...they're just chemicals that affect the brain in groovy ways.  :smile:

Love & Light,

Boppity


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