Mr. Mushrooms said:

I get what you're saying, but in terms of concepts and conceptual cognition we use words.  That's what we're doing now and that's what we do.  Otherwise post pictures and see how well we understand each other in terms of concepts and conceptualization, nuanced concepts and conceptualizations.  I liked the video with the new math in it.  Is that thinking?  Not in terms of concepts and conceptualizations.  A calculator can do math.  Is it thinking?  You look at a photo.  You are perceiving it.  It isn't a thought, it's a perception.  The photo makes you sad.  That isn't thought either, it's an emotion.  Do you understand what I am saying?  As I said before, this is a loose definition.  Philosophy requires a tighter one.

---

Mr. Mushrooms said:

So when I am thinking through an abstruse philosophical concept I don't need words.

---

Freedom said:

It depends on how you think. Maybe you need words. I certainly don't.

---

quinn said:

I don't think your brother or your dad or anyone can be a pure word thinker.
They just aren't aware.
Probably the best examples for them are 'life and death' situations or times when they are 'in the moment'. In those cases no one is thinking in words, i think...
They are too cumbersome.

---

quinn said:

Im glad you liked my theory but i am amazed at how easily you are able to pick up these ideas. I have been studying these types of questions for the past couple of years but you seem to just be able to grasp them. Like your example of an 'analogy' is a good one.
I even remember reading about that particular question.

---

quinn said:

I can only gain these insights myself, through reflection and thinking about how thoughts could/couldn't work.
You seem to have direct contact/ awareness of what your thoughts are like.
This is truly an incredible gift!
Are you into any kind of philosophy?
There are particular branches that deal specifically with describing human consciousness... You may enjoy them.

---

quinn said:

Btw would you say Maths is also an example of a kind of thought unrelated to sense, like analogy?
Anyway in a rush so i'll have to cut this short.

---

Quote:

CrabCrack said:Its ironic how besides lucid dreaming all these things are demonized by society and categorized as symptoms of poor mental health when in reality these are the very experiences which cause us to explore the previously unexplored parts of the mind and cause the brain to make way for the new traffic. 

---

Quote:

I wouldn't say I have "direct" awareness but rather indirect awareness. I spot things but its only later when I'm in a different mindset pondering them in retrospect do I realize the value of the observations and put them together. Its like back-engineering. The right combination of consciousness and unconsciousness provides us with a good environment to back-engineer for example when you suddenly become lucid in a dream where you happen to be doing something your usually incapable of doing in lucid dreams then you've accidentally overrided your own self imposed limitation and you can now do that which was previously impossible. If you weren't in that strange less conscious state you wouldn't have been doing that impossible thing and if you hadn't instantly switched to your more conscious everyday state you wouldn't have been in the right place at the right time to override the limitation. Thats how I learned to fly in lucid dreams. By accident. If you think about it this may be the meaning of life. Why we're in this thing with no conscious awareness of having been anywhere else. I don't mean to learn things I mean to gain perspectives which can only be gained by operating under these specific conditions.

---

Quote:

Maths seems to be the study the universal patterns of quantity doesn't it.

---

quinn said:

Okay, I found it rather difficult to get my head round what u r saying. But this is how i interpreted it.

You seemed to describe 'consciousness' and 'unconsciousness' as two aspects of any 'state of mind'. It seemed to me that their relation to one another can be altered, kind of like if you slide a bar from conscious to unconscious, which directly would alter your 'state of mind'. Your experiences in one 'state of mind', when reflected on later in another (say 'normal') 'state of mind' give you these insights.


Is this what you were describing? I didn't quite understand what you meant by 'gaining perspectives'... Do you mean specifically through reflection?

---

quinn said:

I watched a bit of the video btw. I have seen such things before but really incredible. I actually recently saw this thing on this guy who could draw entire city-scapes purely from memory.

---

CrabCrack said:

Thats partially what I'm talking about. Heres a brilliant analogy. I dunno how you learned to cycle a bicycle but when I was about 4 I kept falling off the bike then my granddad held it up for me while I was cycling and at one point I looked behind me and he was gone and I got a fright but then I realized I was cycling so there was no doubt in my mind that I was able to do it. It was through a state of unconsciousness that I learned to cycle. I was unconscious of the fact that my granddad wasn't holding the bike up anymore and I was cycling myself so I no longer had my own misconception that I couldn't cycle making me fall off the bike every time I tried. This is how I learned to fly in lucid dreams I was in a normal dream and I happened to be flying for some reason then I became lucid in mid air. The interesting thing I learned there wasn't to fly in dreams though it was the direct observation of how just knowing something is possible doesn't mean you'll be able to do it when you try there seems to be some kinda subconscious programming that has to be overrided. I woulda never seen it for myself if I hadn't realized I was dreaming at that exact time.

---

Quote:

Theres a big difference between having theoretical knowledge of something and having direct experiential knowledge of it.

---

Certainly, as most shroomerites know.
However it is still a question i ask myself 'how far can a book take you?' There is no doubt that books can have great influence and alter ones understanding of the world. I'd like to believe books can take us anywhere, could give us any insight that we could get through regular experience...

But of course actually experiencing something itself is a knowledge that can never be captured in words... like trying to describe 'red' to a man who is colourblind...

Quote:

In order to gain a certain perspective we need a certain degree of unconsciousness, inawareness, lack of knowledge.

---

This makes sense. So 'perspective' for you is literally altering your subconscious underlying assumptions, which leads to an alteration in your conscious experience; your perspective... (or of course vice versa, it's one and the same thing)

Anyway i hope i haven't grossly misinterpreted you. I might not have used the best words but i feel i know what you mean. Paraphrasing what you say just helps me understand your perspective.

I must say i am also pretty intrigued by your psychosis experiences, ive often wondered what such a state of mind would be like...

Anyway, it's been an interesting chat. I hope you don't mind if i happen to send you questions on occasion? You have been pretty insightful. Let me know if i was grossly incorrect about anythin i said.

quinn said:

I think i understand you a lot better now.
The 'subconscious programming' seems to me to be our fundamental beliefs that construct our own experience and shape exactly what we experience.
We are not aware of these beliefs,
like a dog isn't aware of it's beliefs,
but we have them.

They are just given, taken for granted, unquestioned.

But suddenly when we do experience something and realize it is different from them, we gain an insight through that experience about how to alter those fundamental beliefs, our subconscious...

---

quinn said:

This makes sense. So 'perspective' for you is literally altering your subconscious underlying assumptions, which leads to an alteration in your conscious experience; your perspective... (or of course vice versa, it's one and the same thing)

Anyway i hope i haven't grossly misinterpreted you. I might not have used the best words but i feel i know what you mean. Paraphrasing what you say just helps me understand your perspective.

I must say i am also pretty intrigued by your psychosis experiences, ive often wondered what such a state of mind would be like...

Anyway, it's been an interesting chat. I hope you don't mind if i happen to send you questions on occasion? You have been pretty insightful. Let me know if i was grossly incorrect about anythin i said.

---

Enpo said:

I've been trying to think in words a lot more recently. Every time I do I start out with a couple of sentences, then it is as if I get distracted and random song will start playing in my head, then I will go back to my thought.

This seems pretty abnormal to me, I don't understand it. I've also been trying to improve my speech pronunciation so I have been reading out loud to myself. Now I have trouble interpreting the words and I feel like I am just reading words and not taking any information in.

---

Herbologist said:

I honestly didn't even think about it until I read this post.  All of my thoughts are processed with words even if its an image reel being played in my head.  It may be weird but I constantly have conversational thoughts in my head all day.  I can't help that's how I work and I never thought anything of it really lol. Idkk

---

My dream is to one day free myself from the beliefs that bind me to this world . To be free to go anywhere...

CrabCrack said:

I've been playing around with altering my belief system and I've noticed interesting shit especially regarding how I feel about and view things

---