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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Devlish2]
    #12436340 - 04/22/10 07:26 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

yes apparently they can... there are businesses run that teach people to read faster than their inner voice. take a course? or consider how fast people need to recite in their head in order to read a certain number of words per minute? be the judge?


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OfflinePsylioSynethesis
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Diploid]
    #12436780 - 04/22/10 09:44 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I think in thoughts.

Sometimes that's words, other times images. Still other times it's things that are neither words nor images and that I can't describe. :shrug:




This.

As a response to OP- I agree with you completely on the problems of thinking in words. This is especially problematic for people who only use one language. However, there is a huge advantage in using worded thoughts when thinking about debatable topics or topics that you will discuss later with others. It is normally impossible to shoot an image from your head to another's head without using language, so preparing by talking to yourself is a huge help in my opinion. I also find it effective to attempt to explain things using my voice to another 'individual' in my head (representing the 'other' whom I plan to talk with later.)


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InvisibleSheekle
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #12438969 - 04/22/10 04:05 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I think in thoughts.

Sometimes that's words, other times images. Still other times it's things that are neither words nor images and that I can't describe. :shrug:



Yeah most of the time I just think in "thoughts" unless i'm typing something or talking to somebody.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Sheekle] * 3
    #12441292 - 04/22/10 11:43 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think all this categorization of thought is suspicious.  Sure, sometimes when we think we "hear" words.  Is that thinking in words, or thinking in sound?

Sometimes when we think, we "see" words, (as in spelling sometimes would be a good example).  Is that thinking in words or thinking visually?

Yes, we can think about words.  Is thought ever in words?  Arguably, no.  What would it mean for thought to be in words?  What are words, apart from what we hear or see, or in the case of braille, feel of them?

We need to be careful of what we allow psychologists to tell us, it may not be justified.

Edited by xFrockx (04/22/10 11:44 PM)

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InvisiblePrimal Glitch
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: CrabCrack]
    #12443113 - 04/23/10 11:03 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I think in thoughts.



:wink::thumbup:


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OfflineCrabCrack
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: BrainChemistry] * 1
    #12444320 - 04/23/10 03:01 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Wow, they diagnosed you as autistic?

Do you have problems communicating with others in real life? It seems like you have a strong command of the English language and are effective at communicating your ideas through words, even if you don't think in them.




Yeah when I'm physically speaking I have trouble pronouncing words and I speak really slowly and monotonously to the point that everyone assumes I'm mildly retarded when they first meet me. I also exhibit a wide array of odd behaviour which I always assumed was just my style but after I got diagnosed I read up on high functioning autism and realized I definitely do fit a lot of the criteria.

You're a visual thinker by the sounds of it. Thats what I do when I'm sitting in lectures too I translate it all to images but when it comes to abstract concepts it takes me a long time and I've been observing it lately and I see now that I make this strange abstract picture to represent abstract concepepts in my mind and it takes me a long time cuz I have to make the correct picture in my head. The concept of a metaphor for example I see this big translucent white tinted scenery which somehow lets me conceptualize the idea of a metaphor rapidly.

Quote:

NortonStPhallus said:
This is incredibly interesting, I would put to you that number 2 has the potential to be both a positive and a negative, whereas there is the potential for negative mind control as you said, there is also the potential for language to be used to positively effect ones brain, and that is by creating a phantom reality which the brain perceives as "real" reality in doing this, it is possible for the mind to physically influence the brain and create whatever good feelings it wishes.



I never read the book 1985 but I saw the film and at the time I had no idea what was going on but it would make sense in this context. If people really thought in words then their thinking would only be as complete as their vocabulary but the idea that erasing a word from the dictionary would prevent people from communicating its definition doesn't make sense because there would still be slang.

As for the positive impact of language on the mind theres a whole field devoted to this its called NLP (neuro linguistic programming). Also words are what the hypnotist uses to alter the mind but I've researched this and even deaf people can be hypnotized the only difference being the hypnotist must keep their eyes open.

Edited by CrabCrack (04/23/10 03:31 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12445116 - 04/23/10 05:04 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

yes apparently they can... there are businesses run that teach people to read faster than their inner voice. take a course?

I've taken such a course twice. Once long ago when I was ~20 and Evelyn Wood was a household name and again about 10 years ago at a seminar in Miami.

I found the whole thing to be mostly BS. Either I'm too hard-wired to relearn how to read or the emperor has no clothes. At least in my case, sucking in words as fast as some claim is possible turns them into a mash of gibberish with little meaning that moves too fast to assimilate.

You lose information when reading non-fiction and it's NO FUN AT ALL when you're trying to relax with some fiction.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #12446288 - 04/23/10 08:26 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

i bet the people who claim to think mostly in words are simply unaware of non verbal thought.

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InvisibleTroll Bot
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #12446478 - 04/23/10 09:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I very RARELY think in words, even in social situations; I also have a very hard time remembering sounds or conversations I've had with someone. I can remember what we talked about but the exact words always slip my mind. I would say I have an almost photographic memory.

I also think my inability to think in words has had a negative effect on me socially. I have poor pronunciation and I tend to speak very fast. I usually don't think about what I say and I just say whatever comes out of my mind and then correct it. When I do try to think about what I'm going to say I always end up choking and I can't say it, then I forget. This is a cause/ symptom of my anxiety.

I've recently noticed that my mother thinks in words, out loud. She has general anxiety and it seems the only way she can figure anything out is to think out loud

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Offlinefloatingcharmer


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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Troll Bot]
    #12449101 - 04/24/10 12:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

In a psyc Course, we were discussing the methods for beneficial therapy including things like, encouraging patients to own and accept their thoughts, discuss the positive and negative aspects of behavior that could result, ask questions to explore options etc.

I asked "it sounds like therapy is just facilitating an internal dialog, isn't it ironic that you are essentially teaching "crazy" people to talk to themselves"

and the prof acknowledged it but refrained from giving a response that indicated he actually got the joke/statement. The rest of the class didnt or at least couldnt be bothered to listen. Am i that hard to understand? lol


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Cause Lookin for a reason ain't Never goin out of season

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Invisibleexplosiveoxygen
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: CrabCrack]
    #12449823 - 04/24/10 02:34 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

All types of minds are needed in this world. :thirdeyeani:


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The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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OfflinePsylioSynethesis
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #12449906 - 04/24/10 02:57 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

explosiveoxygen said:
All types of minds are needed in this world. :thirdeyeani:




No types of minds are needed in this world. :thirdeyeani:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: PsylioSynethesis] * 1
    #12449916 - 04/24/10 03:00 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

LMAO


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OfflineCrabCrack
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Freedom]
    #12463842 - 04/27/10 06:53 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
i bet the people who claim to think mostly in words are simply unaware of non verbal thought.



Yeah I'm almost positive thats the case. I've been observing my thought processes and a lot of the time I don't think with sound, vision, emotions or any other sense its something else and whatever it is its instantaneous. We think in thought but we often need to make pictures or sounds to represent concepts so they make sense to our logic I think thats what it is. For example when we're in the midst of a salvia trip we're clearly not thinking in words or pictures but we think thats for sure. In fact I'm so incapacitated in a salvia trip all I can do is think but I can't access memories or use pictures to represent thoughts yet I still think my way out of the hyperdimensional mind mazes I find myself in on salvia.

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OfflineCrabCrack
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #12463861 - 04/27/10 07:05 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enpo said:
I very RARELY think in words, even in social situations; I also have a very hard time remembering sounds or conversations I've had with someone. I can remember what we talked about but the exact words always slip my mind. I would say I have an almost photographic memory.

I also think my inability to think in words has had a negative effect on me socially. I have poor pronunciation and I tend to speak very fast. I usually don't think about what I say and I just say whatever comes out of my mind and then correct it. When I do try to think about what I'm going to say I always end up choking and I can't say it, then I forget. This is a cause/ symptom of my anxiety.

I've recently noticed that my mother thinks in words, out loud. She has general anxiety and it seems the only way she can figure anything out is to think out loud




Thats exactly how it is with me. I have trouble pronouncing words and I used to talk real fast and be constantly correcting myself but this gives lots of people the idea that I'm an idiot and meant every word I said so now I make sure I have the right words before I say anything but this makes me talk real slowly which also gives people the idea that I'm an idiot so I suppose theres no real way around people thinking I'm retarded haha. My mother uses words to think too and she gets anxiety all the time aswell.

Quote:

explosiveoxygen said:
All types of minds are needed in this world. :thirdeyeani:



Yeah its like we all have different pieces to the jigsaw and sometimes we think the other person is talking shit because what they're saying makes no sense in the context of the pieces we have but if we all acknowledge this and put our pieces together then we'll solve the puzzle.

I've noticed something interesting. Sometimes when I'm on certain drugs like MDMA my brain automatically translates the words I hear into what I can understand and as a result I can hear everything people are saying whether I want to or not and I no longer have any trouble communicating with people. As an example of what I'm normally like is today I was sitting in a lecture listening to the sounds coming out of the lecturers mouth but couldn't understand a word of it unless I consciously translated it into pictures. This gets 100x worse when I smoke weed sometimes someones asking me a question and I know by the pitch of their voice its a question but my mind is too scattered to concentrate on what they're saying so it doesn't get translated so I just stare at them amused at the fact I can't understand a word they're saying. I often get funny looks when this happens I'm guessing thats because other people assume you understand what they're saying to you so they think I'm just intentionally not answering their question for some reason. I've often answered questions with guesses like "yeah" or "no" but this can have disasterous results and I have to be careful about laughing when someones saying something and I can't understand it because a couple of times people were talking about serious negative shit and I started laughing because I was just staring at their face and listening to the sounds they were making but didnt put the effort into translating it. How is it for all of you does your brain automatically translate things people say into something you can understand or do you have to consciously make sense of it yourself?

Edited by CrabCrack (04/27/10 07:28 AM)

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InvisibleTroll Bot
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: CrabCrack]
    #12465556 - 04/27/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

CrabCrack said:
Quote:

Enpo said:
I very RARELY think in words, even in social situations; I also have a very hard time remembering sounds or conversations I've had with someone. I can remember what we talked about but the exact words always slip my mind. I would say I have an almost photographic memory.

I also think my inability to think in words has had a negative effect on me socially. I have poor pronunciation and I tend to speak very fast. I usually don't think about what I say and I just say whatever comes out of my mind and then correct it. When I do try to think about what I'm going to say I always end up choking and I can't say it, then I forget. This is a cause/ symptom of my anxiety.

I've recently noticed that my mother thinks in words, out loud. She has general anxiety and it seems the only way she can figure anything out is to think out loud




Thats exactly how it is with me. I have trouble pronouncing words and I used to talk real fast and be constantly correcting myself but this gives lots of people the idea that I'm an idiot and meant every word I said so now I make sure I have the right words before I say anything but this makes me talk real slowly which also gives people the idea that I'm an idiot so I suppose theres no real way around people thinking I'm retarded haha. My mother uses words to think too and she gets anxiety all the time aswell.





I wonder if I have autism too then lol. My cousin is severely autistic, she is incapable of communicating at all but she is unbelievable at completing puzzles. I've also taken an online aspergers test and I'm borderline :shrug:

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Offlinedummy
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Troll Bot]
    #12469322 - 04/27/10 11:56 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

i can do both. usually it's about 50-50


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InvisibleJanamil


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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: dummy]
    #12474025 - 04/28/10 09:12 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Im autistic aswell, Aspergers. I was diagnosed alittle bit ago. This really motivates me to try and not think in words now. Its very hard, because as a child I could never communicate properly. I could never put words together in a sentence so over the years I rewired my brain to think in words.

My thoughts became thoughts that I could explain, so all I would have to do is repeat my thoughts. Its been like this for quiet awhile but since Ive gotten into psychedelics Ive been trying to think more in.. I guess you would call it spatial memory?

My weaknesses as an asperger is obviously communication and just language in general. I fail at it horribly, always have. My English fails, I have failed almost every English glass Ive done but because of my "Special Ed" classes they passed me. This was in high school.. god I wonder whatll happen in college.

Anyway, I use to think in spatial reconstructions of places Ive seen. Take.. um, the field in the back of my house. I can remember specific events when I think of it facing in one direction, and then I can remember different specific events or thoughts when Im facing in another direction. Its not exactly photographic. Its more.. 2d cross-sections of spatial memory. Like, this one girl I fell in love with that I dated for two years. The time I knew it, I was texting her on counter-strike source, in the map DE_nightdust or something. It was nighttime, and I remember every time I thought about her, or remembered a specific event with her. Like if I stared in a certain direction, in a certain part of the map. Id remember the time I was thinking about her before our first date, ect.

My ways of thinking are pretty random tbh, but if I organize my thinking and keep track of what spatial memory Im thinking of. I can instantly remember almost everything on a subject, by just remembering a place. Like I use to do that for tests in high school. For biology, I would remember a 3d construction in the book and everytime I thought of how this certain part of biology worked.. lets say natural selection. Id think of a rain-forest and create one in my head. Now then during the test, all I would have to do is remember that rain forest, and stand in different 2d cross-sections of it and remember everything I learned.

Now that I realize, I dont need to explain everything I think. Ill try and think more towards my spatial memory instead of English language. Itll take awhile and a few mushroom trips but hopefully I can change most of my thinking towards the spatial part.

Thank you OP you, really motivated me to try and start thinking in this direction again. I just try to think in just spatial with no language and its really hard to remember things, but hopefully I can find a way to connect it all. Also I think Ill start learning Japanese to help me with this goal.

Thank you OP

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OfflinePoptart
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Janamil]
    #12474745 - 04/28/10 11:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think 2 dimensional worded thoughts when I'm sober.

But when I'm high...thats another story.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Thinking without words - Serious matter [Re: Janamil]
    #12476720 - 04/29/10 10:41 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Janamil said:

Anyway, I use to think in spatial reconstructions of places Ive seen. Take.. um, the field in the back of my house. I can remember specific events when I think of it facing in one direction, and then I can remember different specific events or thoughts when Im facing in another direction.





Wow that's fucking awesome, I also think in spatial reconstructions! I've never heard of anyone else who thinks this way. You weren't adopted in Florida were you? (my long lost brother)

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