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Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammad Drawings *DELETED*
    #11757427 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11757502 -

"(And is this not like many Christians who wouldn't mind if they lived in a country that killed homosexuals, but themselves would not dare to kill them themselves?)"

I was about to say that your logic applies to almost any grouping of people, but this very last sentence indicates you are aware of that. 

Anytime there is a body of people associated as a group there will be extremists within that group.  This holds true for religions, nations, sports teams, etc...The only question to ask is: do we as a society blame the entire group for its fringe's actions, which is the easy black and white approach....or do we take the more complex and nuanced stance that all groups have fringe elements that do not necessarily represent the general will and purpose of the group?

I am a fan of the latter simply because I am inherently a member of many groups that have fringe elements.  While I at once chastise these fringe elements, I will certainly not leave the group.  I think the same will hold true for the majority of Muslims in light of this recent attack.


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143/0x63/99...It's like watching the mycelium grow...
WARNING: You must be 21 years of age to experience hallucinations.

Edited by myco99 (01/03/10 06:47 AM)

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings *DELETED* [Re: myco99]
    #11757521 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11757533 -

Lakefingers said:
But don't you think the masses justify the fringes? By giving a mainstage quality to the fringe?

If the masses were not silent, not as grey, if they were more vocal and insightful about who what they are, then the fringes would stand out more clearly as marginalized fringes.


This is very true.  I am trying to recall a few cases when the masses of a group has stood up boldly to its fringe, but I can't.  I can think of a large number of cases in history when the "leaders" of the general masses have spoken out against the fringe, but never the masses directly taking on the fringe in some type of large protest.

That said, one can argue that as the fringe in a group grows the group eventually splits, which is a de facto stance against the fringe.  This has occurred in nation states throughout history, the American Muslim movement, the southern democrats during the Civil Rights movement in the US, etc...


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143/0x63/99...It's like watching the mycelium grow...
WARNING: You must be 21 years of age to experience hallucinations.

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: myco99]
    #11757678 -

Often the fringe are the henchmen for the middle. :wink: They are integral to the whole movement and it's often unspoken agenda. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings *DELETED* [Re: myco99]
    #11758114 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11758116 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11758126 -

Lakefingers said:
myco99 said:
Lakefingers said:
But don't you think the masses justify the fringes? By giving a mainstage quality to the fringe?

If the masses were not silent, not as grey, if they were more vocal and insightful about who what they are, then the fringes would stand out more clearly as marginalized fringes.


This is very true.  I am trying to recall a few cases when the masses of a group has stood up boldly to its fringe, but I can't.  I can think of a large number of cases in history when the "leaders" of the general masses have spoken out against the fringe, but never the masses directly taking on the fringe in some type of large protest.

That said, one can argue that as the fringe in a group grows the group eventually splits, which is a de facto stance against the fringe.  This has occurred in nation states throughout history, the American Muslim movement, the southern democrats during the Civil Rights movement in the US, etc...


It seems that the thing, or the problem if you want to call that, is just a natural function of human herding...


Exactly :thumbup:


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143/0x63/99...It's like watching the mycelium grow...
WARNING: You must be 21 years of age to experience hallucinations.

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: myco99]
    #11759045 -

This is an interesting case. It blows my mind to think that people are so irrational out there and so close minded that they would wish to murder someone brutally over some stupid pictures in a newspaper. Not only is that brutal "religious" us and them BS but its so servile and irrational for the individual who attempted to murder him, you know... like nobody is going to jail break him from his "cause" - he is just a tool who got all fired up because of reasons pretty foreign to me. It would suck to have to brood so much anger without really examining it... to me at least it seems like that would be lame... I guess he will have plenty of time to do so....


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: andrewss]
    #11759614 -

a: try not to infuriate people of different cultural background
b: especially avoid infuriating people that have established insane retaliatory response:
eg.
1- american military industrial complex (MIC)
and
2- muslim extremists.

oddly muslim extremists try to OWN the muslim descriptor while
non-extreme muslims are as oppressed by extremists as we are by the MIC.

we can all shake in our winter boots at the violence in the hearts of men who claim to be our brothers or their enemies.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11759659 -

I choose to shake in my sandals. Boots are the footwear of choice for fascists.


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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11759714 -

This thread kindof scares me a bit.  Muslims are not one group.  The sort of thinking in the OP is what leads people into wars over religion.  They don't condone or not condone this attempted murderer's actions as muslims, they do so as people.  There are plenty of non-muslims who might want to kill the guy for starting shit too, but that doesn't mean we're gonna start a conversation about what do with their group.

Honestly Lakefingers, are you being serious or is this just one of those devils-advocate hate threads?  I've made a few of those in my day, and this reeks of it.

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: xFrockx]
    #11759986 -

xFrockx said:
This thread kindof scares me a bit.  Muslims are not one group.

:what:

Just because there are different sects of the Islam religion does not mean that they are not generally one group. 



xFrockx said:
The sort of thinking in the OP is what leads people into wars over religion.  They don't condone or not condone this attempted murderer's actions as muslims, they do so as people.

Are you saying that there has never been a Muslim who has killed in the name of their religion? :rolleyes:



xFrockx said:
There are plenty of non-muslims who might want to kill the guy for starting shit too, but that doesn't mean we're gonna start a conversation about what do with their group.

If those non-Muslims did it in the name of their group, and it is part of their group's agenda, then why not?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11759988 -

Lakefingers said:
Icelander said:
Often the fringe are the henchmen for the middle. :wink: They are integral to the whole movement and it's often unspoken agenda. :satansmoking:


How often?


IMO, always. Otherwise the middle would dispose of them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: Poid]
    #11760162 -

So does that mean as an athiest I support the human rights violations of communist China?

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: xFrockx]
    #11760183 -

Atheists cannot be clumped into one general group, IMO, because they are basically generic human beings who haven't been tainted by religion; the only "doctrine" in Atheism is "There is no God.". :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: Poid]
    #11760270 -

Says the Shiitte about the Sunni, or the Liberal Muslim about the Conservative one.

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: xFrockx]
    #11760280 -

Atheism is not a religion; there are several religions, but there is only "one" Atheism.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: Poid]
    #11760401 -

"Atheism is not a religion"

by my standards it is.  I only said i was an athiest

So you're saying there's only one Islam?

That's like saying there is only one Christianity, only one Buddhism, only one Hinduism, only one Judiasm.

I really hope you are joking, and just playing devils advocate and having justifying hating an entire religious group over beliefs about murder you perceive them to have. 

Here's the irrational stupid logic going on in this thread:

1.  A muslim guy tried to kill someone who made fun of his religion
2.  All muslims support or indirectly condone this man's actions by remaining muslim.

Therefore, Should Islam be stopped?

Totally assinine premises for asking the question.  People support or disapprove of this action by this man as people, not as muslims.  There are no muslims, only people who believe they are muslims.  Even if the Koran would justify the actions, that still doesn't mean those who follow it should be prosecuted, unless they act on it.  They are allowed to think and believe whatever they want, and rightly so.

Edited by xFrockx (01/03/10 06:15 PM)

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Re: Religion, free speech, diplomacy, murder - Danish Mohammed Drawings [Re: xFrockx]
    #11760587 -

xFrockx said:
"Atheism is not a religion"

by my standards it is.

Well your standards are wrong.



xFrockx said:
So you're saying there's only one Islam?

No, I already told you that I am aware that there are several sects of the religion of Islam, but that this fact doesn't necessarily mean that they cannot be clumped into one general group, since there are obviously some fundamental similarities between all of the sects.



xFrockx said:
That's like saying there is only one Christianity, only one Buddhism, only one Hinduism, only one Judiasm.

True. :thumbup:



xFrockx said:
I really hope you are joking, and just playing devils advocate and having justifying hating an entire religious group over beliefs about murder you perceive them to have.

I am not joking at all, and I know for a fact that the Koran has passages which practically orders its practitioners to kill other non-Muslims. If you don't believe me, or are otherwise unaware of this fact, then I will provide you with a source.

 

xFrockx said:
Here's the irrational stupid logic going on in this thread:

1.  A muslim guy tried to kill someone who made fun of his religion
2.  All muslims support or indirectly condone this man's actions by remaining muslim.

Only Muslims which actually do support or indirectly condone that man's actions actually do support or indirectly condone that man's actions. :lol:



xFrockx said:
Therefore, Should Islam be stopped?

I would prefer that religion be wiped out, but not just for the reasons discussed in this thread. :shrug:



xFrockx said:
Even if the Koran would justify the actions, that still doesn't mean those who follow it should be prosecuted, unless they act on it.  They are allowed to think and believe whatever they want, and rightly so.

I agree with this. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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