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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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The good man's religion is goodness.
    #1613004 - 06/05/03 10:54 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I wanted to share with you guys a passage from a book I am reading:

"The belief in God cannot much longer, it seems to me, have any value for human beings. It is merely a means of postponing the reckoning, a means of avoiding the real issues and getting down to the business of realizing man's evolutionary destiny, which is to live in peace and good will, in creative harmony with all his fellow men.

Doctrines of innate depravity have done considerable damage to the development of humanity. Man does not need to look for salvation by repentance of his inherited sins, for he has inherited none within his biological structure; but he has inherited many through the social structures into which he has been born, and among the most reprehensible of these sins is the doctrine of innate depravity itself in the various forms which it has taken. Human beings are born with an ineradicable drive toward goodness. It may be completely repressed, but it cannot be extinguished. If there is a divinity in man it is this innate drive toward goodness, and it is the only divinity at the shrine of which human beings should worship. Indeed, unless they do they are likely to continue in the worship of false gods. The good man's religion is goodness."

I, personally, couldn't agree more.

How 'bout you guys?

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1613015 - 06/05/03 10:57 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)


The first sentence of the passage makes no sense.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: Murex]
    #1613056 - 06/05/03 11:10 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I think the author says that because he is saying we need to realize that we are not born sinners. We are born only with the desire to love and be loved, and we learn other, more evil human emotions, from society.

I think the rest of the passage backs up the argument he makes in the first sentence very well. It makes perfect sense to me, at least.


--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1613063 - 06/05/03 11:12 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)


Oh, I see now....thoze commas kept messing me up. :tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineCougheeman
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: Murex]
    #1613155 - 06/05/03 11:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

hey steve, long time since i have posted here. Nice informative post, i agree whole heartily on that. I do not believe humans are plagued with sin, or are inherently evil; i believe that each and everyone of us is driven by goodness. So why is it that we have all of these horrible people in the world who commit terrible deeds, well one way to explain it is they have lost touch or are not yet in touch with their soul and they live totally in the outer, instinctive mind. So why must we suffer if we are filled with goodness; karma has to be resolved someway, somehow. :smile:

 


--------------------
Aum Namah Sivaya


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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1613163 - 06/05/03 11:44 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)


That's pretty interesting, I agree with it mostly. Terence McKenna said the same sort of thing in one of his talks. The concept of an inherently flawed humanity is an albatross around our collective necks.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1613975 - 06/06/03 05:44 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I agree.
It's so true.
thank you for posting.
What are you reading?
I don't think beief in God is necessarily wrong though.


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OfflineCougheeman
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: frogsheath]
    #1614330 - 06/06/03 11:45 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The passage is explaining God as a physical form, something tangible. Almost all religions do in fact base their core concept on the goodness inside aspect. This force of good was then created into a physical being, a God if you could say, allowing the religion to grow since not everyone could believe in something if they couldn't see it with their own two eyes. Although i said above i do agree with your post, i would say its misleading in saying this belief of God can't hold.


--------------------
Aum Namah Sivaya


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: Cougheeman]
    #1614730 - 06/06/03 03:35 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

If you are saying belief in God doesn't preclude the goodness of humans -or the recognition of it- I would agree. I don't think humans have to give up believing in god in order to believe in themselves.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: frogsheath]
    #1614997 - 06/06/03 05:28 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Man is totally spiritually depraved and completely blind to this fact
due to the darkness that envelopes his entire being. This is why one
must be born again in order to see and rejoice in the gospel of free
grace. The whole notion of "free will" goes out the window once the
biblical doctrine of depravity is understood.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and DESPERATELY WICKED: who
can know it" (Jer. 17:9)

"The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Gen 8:21)

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may
ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil" (Jer. 13:23)

"The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their
heart while they live" (Ecc. 9:3)

"The heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil"
(Eccl. 8:11)

"And you hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins ... even
when we were dead in sins, (God) hath quickened us together with Christ"
(Eph. 2:1,5)

"And you being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh
hath he quickened together with him" (Col. 2:13)

"Out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications,
murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil
eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these things come from within, and
defile the man" (Mk. 7:21-23)

"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they
are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them because they are
spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14)

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3)



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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 94,392
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: frogsheath]
    #1615117 - 06/06/03 06:02 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If you are saying belief in God doesn't preclude the goodness of humans -or the recognition of it- I would agree.  I don't think humans have to give up believing in god in order to believe in themselves.




Nor do I.
As to the rest..perhaps I've gotten a little cynical, but I must say that that I think that humans aren't intrinsically "good" pre se. Have a look at the headlines: murders, rape and robbery abound. Also, nasty, miserable gits seem to abound.
But, having said that, there are many truly good people about as well. I do believe that humanity can rise above their base nature. I would love to live in a world such as the one described...perhaps some lovely day we shall! :smile: 


Edited by Le_Canard (06/06/03 06:03 PM)


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Offlinelucid
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: Le_Canard]
    #1615668 - 06/06/03 10:39 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

fivepointer, according to your post, it appears that God has intentionally
created man as one heck of a depraved transgressor...
and expects us to struggle against our very nature (which is bad)
to ever expect anything good - else we are damned.
seems kinda unfair dontcha think ?


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Anonymous

Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: lucid]
    #1615877 - 06/07/03 01:12 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

the falacy in religion comes from the fact that "belief" will send you in that ship to heaven..... religion doesn't ask you to be "good" ... it asks you to follow a set of rules in which to abide by. these rules are embraced by governments... by society... as the standard to how we live... because it is the "right" way. war is somehow considered a necessity.. and won't hurt your chances to heaven... what is wrong with this? where are the values of realizing the humanity in all of us? there is no right here, and wrong over there...

the misconception drives us to believe we are living in the optimium situation, and everything, and everyone that gets in its way... is a sinner... and should die.

destroy this misconception. destroy society... destroy government... think not what a human is when he is born into a war-torn country... or a country that is depraved... or a religion which teaches him how to live. put a man on an island.... and there is where the true nature of man will be revealed... and that nature is good.

break the confines in which we live... imagine every human on an island. i am a humanist... and i will work towards breaking the barriers of structure, and revealing the true nature of man. its our only hope.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: ]
    #1616175 - 06/07/03 07:12 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)


---------------------------------------------------------------
lucid wrote-
"fivepointer, according to your post, it appears that God has intentionally
created man as one heck of a depraved transgressor..."
---------------------------------------------------------------
Man was created good, God did not create Man a depraved transgressor.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them." (Gen. 1:27)

The first transgression made all men depraved and spiritually dead.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
(1 Cor 15:22)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"and expects us to struggle against our very nature (which is bad)
to ever expect anything good- else we are damned."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The idea that fallen man can do something good in order to expect
anything good from God is opposed to the truth. God is only pleased
with Jesus Christ, not with deeds of the ungodly. His perfect obediance
and satisfaction of the broken law on behalf of His people is the
sole ground of justification and favor. This sole ground does not permit
acts of men as a consideration in obtaining or maintaining favor.

Once a person is born from above he is given a new nature and has
a desire in his soul to be holy and not to transgress. This is a
completely new governing principle in the persons life that isn't
a laborous ordeal, but comes naturally.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
seems kinda unfair dontcha think ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This objection is answered in Romans chapter 9

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath
resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing
formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one
vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of
mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the
Gentiles?


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Offlinelucid
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: fivepointer]
    #1616421 - 06/07/03 12:39 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Hey LoOnEr,
That's an interesting belief,
I've often wondered what I'd be like if I were raised all alone on an island.
Wonder if I'd still feel compassion and still have a desire to help others.


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offline11polakie11
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Re: The good man's religion is goodness. [Re: lucid]
    #1616555 - 06/07/03 02:09 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

i agree with you steve. But however I disagree about the passages statement that a beleif in god must be relinquished. That I don't think is necessary, but a shift in personal and cultural perspective/perception is definately something needed.

That shift being a less dogmatic and doom-clad religion based upon hysterics and demeanors of peoples - humans - from centuries and centuries ago - who, like most today - made god the way they wanted with text and story and fable.

God can be a good thing, i think is a " good thing " - but what people do to that concept, do in the name of that concept and justify with that concept is what needs to change, in my opinon.


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_


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Amazon Shop: Terrence McKenna

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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