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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: elementswrath]
    #11699061 -

elementswrath said:
jesus had followers...


Proof that Jesus factually existed? :waits:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: elementswrath]
    #11699121 -

Quote:
It's an unfalsifiable theory, so by definition, it asserts itself as being true no matter what.



i don't follow, theorys aren't facts.
if it can't be proven, then it's a belief.


 
Quote:
elementswrath said:
    ...most religions also have some scientific background rendering it a theory.



Quote:
Such as?



settings,places,occurrences, times.
the bible has some rationality.
it has all these things and has some reference.
now of what references i am not sure.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11699141 -

Poid said:
elementswrath said:
jesus had followers...


Proof that Jesus factually existed? :waits:



it was a comparison, not a claim that he existed.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11699158 -

Poid said:
Kickle said:
Society and the person are in conflict.
Rather than change society (an impossible task for a psychologist) the goal is to provide the individual with a means to function within it.


What if all they need is money?




What if :2girls1cup: is your favorite movie?

Poid said:
Kickle said:
Hopes are to retain as much of the original characteristics of such an individual as possible.


Why? 




Time and money are big considerations.
If you're changing the whole person, you're not being very efficient.
If you can simply isolate what is causing the problem and change that, it's going to be a lot quicker.

Poid said:
Kickle said:
You don't want to rewrite the person to make them fit into a mold, you want to provide them with skills that lessen suffering or at least allow them to function within the society.


This isn't the experience described by many people I've talked to who have visited psychologists and/or psychiatrists. :shrug:




:shrug:
I have a whole list of comments that I could put out, but without knowing their individual experiences I'd just be listing off common issues within the field. Most of which are not solely the responsibility of the psychologist, but also of the consumer. Where there is a market, there will be cons. Dr. Frank's homeopathic spray will cure your arthritis, after all. If someone bitched when their arthritis remained, would you blame the medical profession?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: elementswrath]
    #11699177 -

elementswrath said:
Quote:
It's an unfalsifiable theory, so by definition, it asserts itself as being true no matter what.



i don't follow, theorys aren't facts.


No, but they are composed of facts which support them.

From Falsifiability - Wikipedia:
Quote:
Falsifiability (or refutability) is the logical possibility that an assertion can be shown false by an observation or a physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then this can be shown by observation or experiment. Falsifiability is an important concept in science and the philosophy of science. The term "testability" is related but more specific; it means that an assertion can be falsified through experimentation alone.

The term was made popular by Karl Popper. Popper asserted that a hypothesis, proposition, or theory is scientific only if it is falsifiable.

For example, "all men are mortal" is unfalsifiable, since no finite amount of observation could ever demonstrate its falsehood: that one or more men can live forever. "All men are immortal," by contrast, is falsifiable, by the presentation of just one dead man. Not all statements that are falsifiable in principle are falsifiable in practice. For example, "it will be raining here in one million years" is theoretically falsifiable, but not practical.

Popper stressed that unfalsifiable statements are still very important for science and are often contained in scientific theories as unfalsifiable consequences. For example, while "all men are mortal" is unfalsifiable, it is still contained as a consequence of the falsifiable theory that "every man dies before he reaches the age of 150 years". Similarly, the ancient metaphysical idea of the existence of atoms has led to corresponding falsifiable modern theories. Popper invented the notion of metaphysical research programs to name such ideas.

In contrast to Positivism, which held that statements are senseless if they cannot be verified or falsified, Popper denied that falsifiability somehow makes scientific theories special. According to Popper, falsifiability is merely a special case of the much more general notion of criticizability, even though he admitted that falsification is one of the most effective methods by which theories can be criticized.





elementswrath said:
if it can't be proven, then it's a belief.


Yeah, a delusional one. :lol:



elementswrath said:
settings,places,occurrences, times.


How is this scientific background? Do you have sources which verify these "settings,places,occurrences, times."?



elementswrath said:
the bible has some rationality.


I never said that it is completely, 100% irrational.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Kickle]
    #11699197 -

Kickle said:
Poid said:
Kickle said:
Society and the person are in conflict.
Rather than change society (an impossible task for a psychologist) the goal is to provide the individual with a means to function within it.


What if all they need is money?




What if :2girls1cup: is your favorite movie?


:lol:, I was actually trying to make a valid point here! :whacker:



Kickle said:
Poid said:
Kickle said:
Hopes are to retain as much of the original characteristics of such an individual as possible.


Why? 




Time and money are big considerations.
If you're changing the whole person, you're not being very efficient.
If you can simply isolate what is causing the problem and change that, it's going to be a lot quicker.


So when is something considered a problem? Who decides that there is a problem?



Kickle said:
:shrug:
I have a whole list of comments that I could put out, but without knowing their individual experiences I'd just be listing off common issues within the field. Most of which are not solely the responsibility of the psychologist, but also of the consumer. Where there is a market, there will be cons. Dr. Frank's homeopathic spray will cure your arthritis, after all. If someone bitched when their arthritis remained, would you blame the medical profession?


Many people I've talked to who have visited psychologists/psychiatrists report feeling like they're being "mind controlled", but let's remember that these are "crazies" who are reporting these things! :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11699335 -

Sociology looks at the effect of socioeconomic status quite a lot. The effects of the environment an individual is living in are noted if they seem to play a role. But most psychologists can't change an individuals environment so they are forced to work within the constraints of reality.

Is that a preferred answer?

Quote:
So when is something considered a problem? Who decides that there is a problem?



The client is expected to be experiencing issues before ever coming to a therapist, so the client will describe what issues they want resolved. The therapist then provides the patient with a planned course of therapy so that the client will know what steps are going to be taken to achieve a resolution to the problem. All of this occurs before any treatment is initiated. There are no intentional smoke and mirrors in the process.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Kickle]
    #11699411 -

Kickle said:
Quote:
So when is something considered a problem? Who decides that there is a problem?



The client is expected to be experiencing issues before ever coming to a therapist, so the client will describe what issues they want resolved.


Sometimes they are involuntarily forced into a mental institution. :shrug:

:nut:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11699453 -

Yeah, under very specific conditions.
Namely due to harm to self or others.

Holding someone for over 72 hours requires court oversight.

edit: I think harm to self or to others is a pretty clear indicator of conflict with the environment myself. If you think otherwise, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (12/22/09 02:29 PM)

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Kickle]
    #11699473 -

Kickle said:
The effects of the environment an individual is living in are noted if they seem to play a role.


Can you elaborate more on this statement?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11699557 -

Sure.
An example might be that a psychologist asks questions about home life. If the individual reports a troubled home life, the psychologist will take that into account. The reasoning being that verbally abusive or physically abusive households have an impact on mental health. A psychologist then must take this into account when developing a treatment plan as it is a contributing factor.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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