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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Chronic7]
    #11687944 -

Chronic777 said:
But of course really they are just hiding their psychotic tendencies under those lovely smiles aren't they :rolleyes:


At no point have I stopped wondering if perhaps delusion was the only way to really be happy. People like this (and holy fuck the Mormons, for the love of.. *ahem*) do seem really happy, and all thanks to their own crafty thought-traps where they chase their own hopeful tails around in one big circle jerk. Some of us however have had the privelage of having gone too far for that, and questioned a little too much.

I'd go back if I could. :shrug:
*sigh* ignorance is bliss.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: gonzebo]
    #11687973 -

gonzebo said:
Poid said:
gonzebo said:
Poid said:
Even if this is true, isn't the DSM still a decent one? :shrug:



The DSM is decent, yes. It's an approximation is the best way to put it. One of the problems that there is with it is it's general tendency to diagnose everything as a "disorder" which then instantly opens the door for drugs to be diagnosed.

Well I don't know what other reliable metric there is other than the DSM. :shrug2:


Chapter V of the ICD-10 deals with Mental and Behavioural Disorders.

:super:



gonzebo said:
I worded it wrong; my bad. I should've said that unless there is research for beahavioral/cognitive/drug therapy, then psychoanalytic is  generally accepted.

I think I get what you mean.



gonzebo said:
Poid said:
So then we need to do away with such a shitty system? :undecided:


Well not entirely! The psychoanalytic paradigm is good for some things, just not all. The main problem is the time vs. money issue, because the therapy is so extensive the majority of the time.

So how can this issue be resolved?



gonzebo said:
Poid said:]
I've had talks with psychiatrists.


I don't present absolute truth. Some psychiatrists do engage in therapy with their clients as well, however most either don't at all, or refer them to a psychologist for the therapy.

Ah.



Quote:
gonzebo said:
Poid said:
That's quite a shitty & inefficient system, IMO. :glittershitz:


I suppose.. but psychiatrists/psychologists tend to be outnumbered in patient:therapist ratios, so there's not much else to be done.

We could make more psychiatrists. :stoned:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Chronic7]
    #11687980 -

Tropism said:
*sigh* ignorance is bliss.



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11688715 -

Poid said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
Schizophrenics are not defined solely by the symptoms they display, but also by the consequences these symptoms have on their ability to function in our society.


Key word 'solely'; obviously, the symptoms they experience and the behaviors they exhibit are part of the disorder.


The experience and the behaviors they exhibit do not become a disorder without that criteria.
If you omit that, you may as well diagnose everyone. No one is without some behaviors/thoughts that would fit into a DSM-IV TR disorder of some sort :shrug:
Depending on what else is present, often times these "symptoms" can be beneficial.
Many who fit every other criteria for a diagnosis will not receive one because it does not impair their functioning in society.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11688832 -

Poid said:
gonzebo said:
Poid said:
So then we need to do away with such a shitty system? :undecided:


Well not entirely! The psychoanalytic paradigm is good for some things, just not all. The main problem is the time vs. money issue, because the therapy is so extensive the majority of the time.

So how can this issue be resolved?


Well... you sure ask an awful lot of questions. I'm sure you could throw in a bit of your logic on that one; it's quite general question. More psychologists, for example, would obviously help because the more there is of a resource, the less expensive it is. Some form of law that maximized prices for psychologists would also work to achieve that as well.

Another option in the realm of psychoanalytic therapy is Brief Psychodynamic Therapy. It is used for two main purposes: one is to meet the expectations of patients who prefer short term sessions targeted at specific problems. The other is to resolve the need to respond to psychological emercencies (an example of this is shell-shock cases)

Poid said:]
Quote:
gonzebo said:

I suppose.. but psychiatrists/psychologists tend to be outnumbered in patient:therapist ratios, so there's not much else to be done.

We could make more psychiatrists. :stoned:


I'm working on it! That's actually what I'm in the process of being in school for. haha.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11690899 -

Quote:
I think the psychology of religious people is similar to the psychology of people who have a few of the disorders as described in the DSM in many ways, but yeah, they don't use the term "bat shit insane". :smirk:


Can you give a few examples to explain what you mean, and what disorders you're talking about, because at this point it sort of sounds like you're contradicting yourself.
First you say that religious people aren't considered to be mentally ill by the DSM, but then you say they exhibit at least a few of the disorders mentioned by DSM. Surely, if those disorders are already covered by the DSM, and a religious person will exhibit it, it will be identified with the aid of DSM. How then does it not apply to religious people?
However, if one doesn't present any considerable degree of delusion, why should they be labeled as schizophrenics just because they believe in god? Maybe while one does that, one isn't too attached to the idea of a super-power constantly taking care of him or punishing him.
What if the religious person we're talking about is Buddhist, a religion that doesn't believe in god, and uses this religion as a tool of self-discovery and inner peacefulness? How is that delusional?

Quote:
Is it narrow minded to think that every schizophrenic has mental problems?


No, it's pretty narrow-minded to say that very religious person is schizophrenic, did you really had a difficult time understanding what I said, or were you just trying to be witty? Either way, it didn't turn out so well. :shrug:

Quote:
It seems to me that psychologists don't really listen to their patients much because they have the mentality that since they are the one with the college degree, they are the authority and have the final say on every decision made for the patient's treatment.


It seems to you how? Where did you get this information from? Were you the patient of many psychologists that treated you like this? Did you read books for clinicians, that were making such statements?
Wherever you have this impression from elaborate on it, because i'll be glad to talk about this.
Even if a psychologist would have this kind of thinking, he would never be able to make a living from helping people, since his reputation as a sucky psychologist would prevent this from happening. Through psychotherapy, the client will be able to notice good changes in their lives from the very beginning, and if no such progress is felt, then people would stop seeing him and start looking for another therapist.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11692716 -

Kickle said:
Many who fit every other criteria for a diagnosis will not receive one because it does not impair their functioning in society.

So impaired functioning in society = bat shit insane? :tongue:



MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
I think the psychology of religious people is similar to the psychology of people who have a few of the disorders as described in the DSM in many ways, but yeah, they don't use the term "bat shit insane". :smirk:


Can you give a few examples to explain what you mean, and what disorders you're talking about, because at this point it sort of sounds like you're contradicting yourself.

Religious people believe in all kinds of crazy things but have no proof for these crazy things so by definition, they are delusional.



MushroomTrip said:
How then does it not apply to religious people?

It does, and if I said that it didn't, then I guess I contradicted myself.



MushroomTrip said:
However, if one doesn't present any considerable degree of delusion, why should they be labeled as schizophrenics just because they believe in god? Maybe while one does that, one isn't too attached to the idea of a super-power constantly taking care of him or punishing him.

Who decides what is a 'considerable degree of delusion'?



MushroomTrip said:
What if the religious person we're talking about is Buddhist, a religion that doesn't believe in god, and uses this religion as a tool of self-discovery and inner peacefulness? How is that delusional?

As long as they're not delusional, then they're not delusional. :shrug:



MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
It seems to me that psychologists don't really listen to their patients much because they have the mentality that since they are the one with the college degree, they are the authority and have the final say on every decision made for the patient's treatment.


It seems to you how? Where did you get this information from? Were you the patient of many psychologists that treated you like this?

I think so.



MushroomTrip said:
Even if a psychologist would have this kind of thinking, he would never be able to make a living from helping people, since his reputation as a sucky psychologist would prevent this from happening.

Who is everyone going to listen to; the nut or the guy with the college degree? :nut: :nerd:



MushroomTrip said:
Through psychotherapy, the client will be able to notice good changes in their lives from the very beginning, and if no such progress is felt, then people would stop seeing him and start looking for another therapist.

The patient can't always afford to see whichever psychologist s/he chooses.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11695531 -

Poid said:
Sure, but why does the DSM not consider religious people bat shit insane? :nut:


Because the religious still run the world for the most part.

Scientific and other intellectual communities have to be very careful about what stances they hold on certain topics.

All about politics.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: awesomebastard]
    #11695561 -

awesomebastard said:
Poid said:
Sure, but why does the DSM not consider religious people bat shit insane? :nut:


Because the religious still run the world for the most part.

First of all, do you have any proof that this is true?

Second of all, do you have any proof that religious people somehow excluded themselves from the DSM?



awesomebastard said:
Scientific and other intellectual communities have to be very careful about what stances they hold on certain topics.

Why?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11695606 -

Poid said:
awesomebastard said:
Poid said:
Sure, but why does the DSM not consider religious people bat shit insane? :nut:


Because the religious still run the world for the most part.

First of all, do you have any proof that this is true?

Second of all, do you have any proof that religious people somehow excluded themselves from the DSM?



awesomebastard said:
Scientific and other intellectual communities have to be very careful about what stances they hold on certain topics.

Why?


Religious people greatly outnumber atheists in almost all nations.

Second question: If the DSM took a stance on this issue and stated that the religious are delusional and mentally ill they would.

Third question: think about it.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: awesomebastard]
    #11695630 -

awesomebastard said:
Religious people greatly outnumber atheists in almost all nations.

Even if that is true, it isn't proof that religious people "run the world". :smirk:



awesomebastard said:
Second question: If the DSM took a stance on this issue and stated that the religious are delusional and mentally ill they would.

Even if this is true, it still isn't proof that religious people are responsible.



awesomebastard said:
Third question: think about it.

I just wanted your input, is that too much to ask?!!?? :bitch:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11695749 -

Poid said:
I just wanted your input, is that too much to ask?!!?? :bitch:


Yes.:grin:

Sorry I'm being a douche tonight poid, I'm really lazy and just wanted to pop in with my 2c in a couple of threads.

Normally I would enjoy the discussion.

BTW I didnt send you pics because I'm a dude and I really just wanted to trick one person into looking at a pic of my dong.

I got icelander already and felt it was really only funny one time.:lol:


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: awesomebastard]
    #11698677 -

awesomebastard said:
BTW I didnt send you pics because I'm a dude and I really just wanted to trick one person into looking at a pic of my dong.

I got icelander already and felt it was really only funny one time.:lol:

That's classic. :paradisiscoolwhat:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11698779 -

is this topic resolved?
anyways, the reason that religion is not considered to be a haven for the "batshit insane" is because that the idea of god cannot be proven or dis proven, most religions also have some scientific background rendering it a theory.

in a way you can say that society and it's works are very fucked up.

"it is funny how 2000 years ago people will believe in a man in a robe to be the son of god, but if this son of god where to appear in the present today he would be thrown in a psych ward"

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Poid]
    #11698839 -

Poid said:
Kickle said:
Many who fit every other criteria for a diagnosis will not receive one because it does not impair their functioning in society.

So impaired functioning in society = bat shit insane? :tongue:



Nope. In days now past it might have been described as such, but that's not how it is described now.
It still is seen from the majority side but it is described more in terms of what's occurring.

Society and the person are in conflict.
Rather than change society (an impossible task for a psychologist) the goal is to provide the individual with a means to function within it. Hopes are to retain as much of the original characteristics of such an individual as possible. You don't want to rewrite the person to make them fit into a mold, you want to provide them with skills that lessen suffering or at least allow them to function within the society.

Nowhere is insanity, as it is commonly regarded, brought up. Insanity is a legal term.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Kickle]
    #11698868 -

Quote:
"it is funny how 2000 years ago people will believe in a man in a robe to be the son of god, but if this son of god where to appear in the present today he would be thrown in a psych ward"


I highly doubt that quote would hold up in reality.
It would definitely depend on what Jesus the man was really like, though.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Kickle]
    #11698916 -

most likely not.
if you can really believe that a man can make fish and bread rain from the sky you got a another thing coming, a one way ticket to the psych ward.
but since it is religion it is acceptable and that's why it's so fucked.
it seems when a mass supports and idea true or false it's okay, but if it's a small group or a individual they are labeled as crazy.
another thing to address is that there are people who take the bible literally and there are people that don't.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: elementswrath]
    #11698961 -

Believing that things occurred in the distant past is one thing, but believing they are occurring here and now is another. The schizophrenic individual doesn't believe that someone in the distant past was being followed by CIA agents due to a government conspiracy... they believe they currently are.

IMO that's a pretty significant difference in regards to these beliefs.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Kickle]
    #11699023 -

elementswrath said:
anyways, the reason that religion is not considered to be a haven for the "batshit insane" is because that the idea of god cannot be proven or dis proven...

It's an unfalsifiable theory, so by definition, it asserts itself as being true no matter what.



elementswrath said:
...most religions also have some scientific background rendering it a theory.

Such as?



elementswrath said:
"it is funny how 2000 years ago people will believe in a man in a robe to be the son of god, but if this son of god where to appear in the present today he would be thrown in a psych ward"

Yeah, that is pretty god damned hilarious! :rofl:



Kickle said:
Society and the person are in conflict.
Rather than change society (an impossible task for a psychologist) the goal is to provide the individual with a means to function within it.

What if all they need is money?



Kickle said:
Hopes are to retain as much of the original characteristics of such an individual as possible.

Why? 



Kickle said:
You don't want to rewrite the person to make them fit into a mold, you want to provide them with skills that lessen suffering or at least allow them to function within the society.

This isn't the experience described by many people I've talked to who have visited psychologists and/or psychiatrists. :shrug:



Kickle said:
Nowhere is insanity, as it is commonly regarded, brought up. Insanity is a legal term.

Yeah, I know, I just like using that term 'bat shit insane' because it's funny to me. :tongue:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Religious people are not considered delusional, according to modern psychology... [Re: Kickle]
    #11699048 -

remember that the past was once present you know.
jesus had followers, who did currently believe in him so in a way it's not really different then from people believing in him today except for his physical being and interactions.


believing that the CIA in the past has stalked conspiracy followers is not so different then believing it currently, except for the physical being and interactions has diminished.
also considering that the CIA works secretly most of the time it usually is a belief rather then fact.

if you weren't there than you can't say it's true or false.
if you are a victim of the CIA then you can know for sure or any sort of interactions with them.


oh, and mentality of the individual is not the discussion.
i am referring to regular people.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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