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Morality & Choice
    #1153210 -

I recently heard of a study (sorry, no source) that shows some 90% of hardcore, violent felons were beaten as children. For the sake of this thread, let's assume the study and correlation to be true, and to be beaten as children was not mere spanking, but sadistic brutalization.

Does this mean that crime, sin, and immorality might not be choices at all, but a reflection of forces outside of our control - at least as it pertains to violence?

I personally believe that we choose, but then again I do not have the negative imprint than an abused child had. Garbage in; garbage out?

OTOH, am I basically a moral person because my parents were moral people and not because I have consciously and deliberately chosen "goodness"? (This rhetorical question is NOT designed to start another Swami analysis, but is generic in nature.)



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1153251 -

Ok, let's assume that that most violent felons WERE beaten as children. That doesn't necessarily mean that it was the beating itself that caused the children to become violent. It could be genetics too. A child who was abused by his parents might become a felon because the abusive nature is in his genes.

Either way, BOTH reasons would imply that violence is beyond a person's control. Interesting point...


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1153255 -

There also appears to be a very strong correlation between high testesterone levels, alpha males and violence.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1153670 -

I am still thinking about your questions in total....

I have read the posts so far and find myself struck by the emotional weight that we givethe word "violence", which reminds me that we have here a word that's very deffinition is culturally slanted.....which reminded me, in a weird disjoited way (much like this sentence) that nature is instelf EXTREAMLY violent, excuding cultural differences......

again, webster....

vi.o.lent adj [ME, fr. MF, fr. L violentus; akin to L vis strength--more at vim] (14c) 1: marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity 2 a: notably furious or vehement b: extreme, intense <~ pain> <~ colors> 3: caused by force: not natural 4 a: emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control b: prone to commit acts of violence <~ prison inmates> --


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.

Edited by upupup (12/19/02 03:52 AM)

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1153692 -

As in homosexuality genetic predisposition does not negate volition.

Ipso facto biological determinism is a non-causal correlation ad nauseum ad infinitum.

Soup de jure?

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1153702 -

My father used to closed-fist beat me when I was a child.
Eventually he stopped... I think it happened one day when I told him that when he was old and infirmed that I'd beat the living shit out of HIM and there won't be a damn thing he can do about it. From then on out, he was rarely physical with me (with the exception of one instance in high school).

He had a horrible temper. As a teenager, I had a short fuse too. However, I grew up and out of it. I can't even remember the last time I lost it and became violent (though I've had many chances to do so).

It all comes down to a choice. Luckily I was smart enough to realize that.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1153744 -

When you think about it, it's altogether quite likely that none of our actions are truly self-determined... most likely, having the experiences you've had, and knowing what you know, you'd always do the same thing twice.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Sclorch]
    #1154001 -

(My father) had a horrible temper. As a teenager, I had a short fuse too. However, I grew up and out of it.

Well, that brings up a good point. Say (just for the sake of argument) that if you were abused as a child, you?d have a 10% chance of being abusive as an adult. Then I would agree with Mr Mushrooms that genetic or environmental predisposition doesn?t negate volition.

On the other hand, say that if you were abused as a child, you?d have a 99% chance of being abusive as an adult. In that case, I think you could argue against volition. If 99% of abused people were still abusive in spite of societal laws, customs, and pressures to behave differently, then to me volition wouldn?t apply.

Which I think was Swami?s original question ? is violence a conscious choice???


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Sclorch]
    #1154003 -

(My father) had a horrible temper. As a teenager, I had a short fuse too. However, I grew up and out of it.

Well, that brings up a good point. Say (just for the sake of argument) that if you were abused as a child, you?d have a 10% chance of being abusive as an adult. Then I would agree with Mr Mushrooms that genetic or environmental predisposition doesn?t negate volition.

On the other hand, say that if you were abused as a child, you?d have a 99% chance of being abusive as an adult. In that case, I think you could argue against volition. If 99% of abused people were still abusive in spite of societal laws, customs, and pressures to behave differently, then to me volition wouldn?t apply.

Which I think brings us back to Swami?s original question ? is violence a conscious choice???


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1154009 -

Violence is a choice. It's called taking responsibility for your actions.


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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Shroomism]
    #1154062 -

*clap clap clap*


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Shroomism]
    #1154168 -

Bravo! Well put!


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Happy mushrooming!

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Sclorch]
    #1154250 -

It's a common thing these days..not taking responsibility. "Oh I can't stop drinking, I can't help it, it's a disease"... "It's not my fault I beat my wife it's my dad's fault for beating me when I was little"

Sure, maybe if you are beat when you are younger you have a higher chance of thinking violently when older, or if you drink all the time it's harder and harder to stop. That doesn't mean you aren't in control. We are in full control of our actions, and we need to learn to be responsible for them instead of blaming them on other things or other people. That is number 1 I think. Humans need to stop blaming their problems on other people and quit being a bunch of whiny pussies and suck it up and take 100% responsibility for everything we do, individually and as a society as a whole. If we see a problem, acknowledge it and take steps to correct it, not ignore it, or justify the problem as out of our hands and there is nothing we can do about it. If we caused it we can reverse it. The control lies with the individual.


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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1154370 -

A lot of what we do is determined by our genes, our education and our environment. I believe in free will though.


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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Shroomism]
    #1154536 -

I think in certain situations people don't make concious choices, they just act out. I have done many things that maybe i shouldn't have... and right before it happened i didn't give any second thought to it. I was young and i always picked on this girl that was a little over weight. When i was that young i thought it was fun... people laughed, she cried. Choices... doesn't always mean we see options.

Most people act. Some of us think.  :grin:


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Evolution of Time.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1154561 -

Assuming this were true, it would be example of inherited karma.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Shroomism]
    #1154661 -

Let me throw out this analogy out for thought.  Maybe it?s not a perfect analogy, but give it some thought before shredding it apart:

I believe that I am agnostic because I am a very logical person (at least I am a logical person in my own mind ? no need to debate me on this).  To me, I believe there is no way to know if there is a God or an afterlife (although Mr. Mushrooms has promised he would soon post ?philosophical evidence for the existence of an afterlife?, which we are all eagerly awaiting, I?m sure  :wink: ).

Now, I take the position that if there indeed be a God, I shouldn?t be punished for not believing in his existence.  I was simply doubtful because of my ?logical? mind.  My friends argue that this is absolutely no excuse, and that if I don?t become a devout Christian, God will have no mercy on me and send me straight to hell (and I think this is what most Catholics believe as well).

I say I have no choice, my beliefs are a product of my logical mind.  They insist that I do have a choice.  You know what?  I think technically, they?re right!!!

Still, I am agnostic, and may find myself in hell someday as a result.  Should I change my ways?  I DO have a choice after all!  :confused:


NOTE ? I too believe people should be held 100% accountable for their actions.  So I guess if there is a God, then I have hell to look forward to.


Edit:  Is the analogy clear?  Let me try to explain it some more just in case it isn't:

The majority of people in America think that violence is wrong.  But perhaps people from violent backgrounds see violence as being a natural part of life.  Most probably think they can get away with it, and in most cases they probably can.

In my case, I am told that being agnostic is wrong by Christians (who make up the majority of the population).  But I think it is just a logical position.  Since I don't believe in hell, I assume that I can get away with being agnostic.

Does that help, or did I reinforce the fact that my analogy is no good?


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (12/19/02 09:23 AM)

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155085 -

i see what you mean... a perpetuation of chaos. sadly this is how our world works. 90% of the human population does as shroomism says dont take responsibility for what they do, because of their enviroment and cognition of their own life they rather assume take out what got shit on them to shit on someone else. the 9% after that probably become mentally disturbed and have psychotic problems. and i bet you about 1% come out on top of what was given to them for whatever reason. but this is our world, and i think by what you said it means that people havent taken responsibility so it just keeps getting shoved on down the line to those 1% who take responsibiliy, and so the numbers keep multiplying. and this all this lack of taking responsibility is just one of my contentions for a massive global evolution, people are going to have to wake up to the truth or faced with all that which they so willingly choose to ignore and leave to everyone else to be subject to.


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What?

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Shroomism]
    #1155127 -

I completely agree with you. I think we all have the free will to choose what we do and say in every aspect of our lives (unless, of course, you suffer from some serious mental illness).

I do, however, think that the choices we make are a result of our genes/hormones and our life experiences. So, in essence, our "free will" is limited in a way to what we have learned and how our genes/hormones affect the way we think.


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Namaste.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1155143 -

Being held accountable and being ultimately responsible for one's actions, in my mind are irrelevant when it comes to punishment and may be quite different issues.

When a rabid dog bites me, I will kill it even if it had no choice; it was the nature of a disease. In the same way, when an innocent person is the victim of unprovoked violence, I say burn down the perpetrator, no matter his personal imprinting or genetic predisposition. Remove the danger to society.

Understanding the criminal is fine, but the punishment should be enforced equally to all regradless of excuse.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Sclorch]
    #1155154 -

He had a horrible temper. As a teenager, I had a short fuse too.
Is there a correlation? What if you had seriously hurt someone when in that frame of mind? What then?

However, I grew up and out of it.
Which is highly notable that you were able to overcome this tendency.

(Not necessarily directed to sclorch)
I don't think my question has yet been answered to my satisfaction. I hear a lot of opinions, but no convincing arguments for or against.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1155165 -

I think we all have the free will to choose what we do and say in every aspect of our lives (unless, of course, you suffer from some serious mental illness).

In your statement you speak out of both sides of your mouth. Serious mental illness = zero responsibility; therefore there must gradations where some mental illness = 50% responsibility.

As we are all mentally ill to some degree (EVERYONE makes irrational decisions from time to time that hurt themselves, so I really don't think this can be strongly argued against.) Therefore, not one of us can be 100% responsible according to your premise.

I await your pointing out the flaw in my logic.




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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155186 -

I agree with all of your points. The point about gradations is especially good. Although people should be held accountable, the mentally ill person somehow isn't as much at fault as a "normal" (bad word choice) person.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Shroomism]
    #1155191 -

I hear what you are saying and agree in part, yet...

Do you believe that many prisoners of war who have been tortured and beaten for years do not come back home either as brutal and heartless themselves or as withdrawn terrified humans?

Do you believe that your behaviour could not be seriously modified against your current nature given extreme external circumstances? So much so that the you of today would be shocked at the future you?

Look at WWII, propaganda and sociopolitical forces turned a nation of inherently decent people into monsters. Should they be punished, yes. Should the forces that shaped them be clearly understood? Of course.

On the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor, a few of the original Japanese pilots came to Hawaii to apologize to American survivors. They were not "evil", but caught up in a wave of nationalism just like the War on Iraqi supporters of today are ready to justify egregious acts.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (12/19/02 12:12 PM)

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155208 -

Exactly. I think those points further strengthen the argument that there are gradations of responsibility. Is the American soldier responsible for attacking people in Iraq? Not really, it's not a soldier's choice where the Govt sends him to fight. But will the Iraqi people hold him accountable for bombing them if they got their hands on him? Hell yes.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155290 -

Why punish someone for doing something wrong when your definition of "wrong" is entirely subjective? Who calculates the severity of the punishment?


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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Revelation]
    #1155321 -

This is a tangent that might be best addressed in another thread. Basically, I believe that if one willfully or negligently harms another, then society should protect itself from possible future harm. Perhaps restraint is a better term than punishment. Although punishment in the form of redress of grievance should be allowed rather than physical/emotional punishment. The only emotional punishment should be societal segregation (not racial) and removal of some freedoms and priveleges.

Swami for president in '04!


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (12/19/02 04:08 PM)

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155614 -

Swamster,

I see no flaw in your logic. There was simply a flaw in what I said because I did not clarify myself enough. I will try to do so now:

Okay... By 'serious mental illness' I was specifically referring to either the clinically insane or to people who have been diagnosed with schizophrenia. These people cannot tell wrong from right and have essentially lost their free will.

Your argument that everyone is mentally ill to some degree is not valid in my opinion. In order to be diagnosed as mentally ill, you must have X out of Y symptoms of some specific mental illness. If you don't have X out of Y symptoms, you are not mentally ill. Of course everyone exhibits signs of some sort of mental illness every now and then, but there are only very few people who can truly be classified as mentally ill.

It was people who can be classified as mentally ill that I was referring to. The rest of us are normal, and still have complete free will and hold total responsibility for our actions, in my opinion.

Like I said before, the choices that we make might be affected by our genes/hormones or life experiences, but essentially we still have the choice. You could walk outside right now and kill the first person you see, but you probably wouldn't. Someone who was severly beaten or traumatized as a child and who has high testosterone levels might actually go out and kill someone because it seemed more "okay" in their eyes, but they essentially still had the choice to kill that person or not. Nothing made them kill that person; they simply chose to do so. Certain things may influence a person to make one decision or another, but they do not make the decision for you. You make the decision.

We can all choose how we let our past experiences affect us. It's ridiculous to blame our actions on something or someone else when we ultimately have the free will to make our own decisions and choices. I just can't see how you could see it any other way, but I would be completely willing to see if someone could show me.


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Namaste.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155615 -

i agree 99% with shroomism. but thre are thoses people who are mently challanged, and CAN'T stop. they don't know how, it dosen't process properly in there brain that what they are doing is wong. so for thoses few, i hope we can find a way to help them, and for the rest. they have the power to stop


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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: soylent_green]
    #1155629 -

Yeah! That's what I was trying to say in a much shorter version. Thanks!


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Namaste.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1155763 -

Your argument that everyone is mentally ill to some degree is not valid in my opinion. In order to be diagnosed as mentally ill, you must have X out of Y symptoms of some specific mental illness.
I don't really care about legal defintions and classifications in this discussion. What we are talking about is how much, if any, real choice we have when it comes to cetain actions; not about whether or not one would be convicted in a court of law.

Of course everyone exhibits signs of some sort of mental illness every now and then,
OK, let's start here as we seem to agree on this point. This means that most everyone is less than 100% sane, just as the mentally ill are not 100% insane. Some of us might make destructive decisions 5% of the time; others maybe 10% of the time. So there must be gradations in mental illness and hence gradations of responsibility according to your premise.

If you want to create a viscious guard dog, then beat him as a puppy. Humans are not that much difference when it comes to behaviorial response to stimuli.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155768 -

Once again I established a broad principle and left it for the reader to extrapolate the conclusion.

I take it you wanted a more direct answer.

Does this mean that crime, sin, and immorality might not be choices at all, but a reflection of forces outside of our control - at least as it pertains to violence?

The philosophical argument between your question is found in the issues of hard and soft determinism.

Hard determinism says that everything is the universe is predetermined according to physical laws.

Soft determinism says that each of us has limited free will according to various psychological 'forces' such as kleptomania impinging on our free will.

But the philosophical libertarians say that free will is an absolute and they draw upon personal experience for their evidence.

Before your question should be asked other questions leading to it should be asked first. These are:

1. Do human beings have free will?

2. When we say that they do or they do not have free will exactly what do we mean?

By definitons:

1. Is it the ability to act on one's desires?

2. Or is it the capacity to act in a way that is not causally determined by a person's character or circumstances?

Your question is futher complicated by the fact that we never see the inner workings of the mind and we never will. All we ever observe are the direct results of those inner workings.

I side with the philosophical libertarians on this point. I know that free will exists in the first definiton because I experience it. Similarly, I know that the physical universe exists for the same reason.

Any further questions?

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: ]
    #1155861 -

OK, but I ask you then the same question that I posed to shroomism (or any other readers):

Do you believe that your behaviour could not be seriously modified against your current nature given extreme external circumstances? So much so that the you of today would be shocked at the future you?

Now before we go too far afield, I am not talking about someone kidnapping a family member and coercing you to do something against your morla code, nor the government limiting your actions through threats of force or imprisonment. No, I am talking about total behavioural modification.

We know that this can easily be demonstrated in lower mammals. Are we THAT much different?

Also what do you make of the correlation bewteen being beaten and passing along violence? Even if it is not 100%, the affect cannot be discarded as insignificant, or to say that individuals that act out have no moral strength. It may very well be due to neural imprinting and chemicals released when facing certain stimuli.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155938 -

Interesting questions with interesting presuppositions.

What you are asking about is the nature of man and how he differs from other animals.

Do you believe that your behaviour could not be seriously modified against your current nature given extreme external circumstances?

Yes, and one does not even need outside coersion.  I think habituation is a sufficient cause for the complete remaking of a human.  How many junkies thought their life would end the way it did?

So much so that the you of today would be shocked at the future you?

Without a doubt.

Also what do you make of the correlation bewteen being beaten and passing along violence?

Most attributes that we possess are a combination of nature/nurture.  So, yes, their is a decided correlation.  This does not absolve us with respect to personal responsibility however.

We know that this can easily be demonstrated in lower mammals. Are we THAT much different?

This is what I call a real question.  The answer is that we are THAT much different!  I would not look to the behavioral modification of man ala Skinner or any of the other materialistic behaviorists to solve the problem of the nature of man.  They are blind guides repeating the errors of their predecessors.

When we get to it I will explain why the chasm between man and the rest of nature is wide and deep.  And why that gulf can never be spanned.

Hopefully it will be interesting. :smile:
 

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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155989 -

Do you believe that your behaviour could not be seriously modified against your current nature given extreme external circumstances? So much so that the you of today would be shocked at the future you?

Yes.


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Morality & Choice [Re: ]
    #1155990 -

Hopefully it will be interesting.

I will stay tuned for more piercing insights. :smile: 


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The proof is in the pudding.

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