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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Sclorch]
    #1155154 - 12/19/02 11:43 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

He had a horrible temper. As a teenager, I had a short fuse too.
Is there a correlation? What if you had seriously hurt someone when in that frame of mind? What then?

However, I grew up and out of it.
Which is highly notable that you were able to overcome this tendency.

(Not necessarily directed to sclorch)
I don't think my question has yet been answered to my satisfaction. I hear a lot of opinions, but no convincing arguments for or against.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1155165 - 12/19/02 11:49 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I think we all have the free will to choose what we do and say in every aspect of our lives (unless, of course, you suffer from some serious mental illness).

In your statement you speak out of both sides of your mouth. Serious mental illness = zero responsibility; therefore there must gradations where some mental illness = 50% responsibility.

As we are all mentally ill to some degree (EVERYONE makes irrational decisions from time to time that hurt themselves, so I really don't think this can be strongly argued against.) Therefore, not one of us can be 100% responsible according to your premise.

I await your pointing out the flaw in my logic.




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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 21 years, 1 month
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155186 - 12/19/02 11:57 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with all of your points. The point about gradations is especially good. Although people should be held accountable, the mentally ill person somehow isn't as much at fault as a "normal" (bad word choice) person.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Shroomism]
    #1155191 - 12/19/02 11:59 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I hear what you are saying and agree in part, yet...

Do you believe that many prisoners of war who have been tortured and beaten for years do not come back home either as brutal and heartless themselves or as withdrawn terrified humans?

Do you believe that your behaviour could not be seriously modified against your current nature given extreme external circumstances? So much so that the you of today would be shocked at the future you?

Look at WWII, propaganda and sociopolitical forces turned a nation of inherently decent people into monsters. Should they be punished, yes. Should the forces that shaped them be clearly understood? Of course.

On the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor, a few of the original Japanese pilots came to Hawaii to apologize to American survivors. They were not "evil", but caught up in a wave of nationalism just like the War on Iraqi supporters of today are ready to justify egregious acts.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (12/19/02 12:12 PM)

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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 21 years, 1 month
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155208 - 12/19/02 12:06 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Exactly. I think those points further strengthen the argument that there are gradations of responsibility. Is the American soldier responsible for attacking people in Iraq? Not really, it's not a soldier's choice where the Govt sends him to fight. But will the Iraqi people hold him accountable for bombing them if they got their hands on him? Hell yes.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155290 - 12/19/02 12:44 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Why punish someone for doing something wrong when your definition of "wrong" is entirely subjective? Who calculates the severity of the punishment?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Revelation]
    #1155321 - 12/19/02 01:00 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

This is a tangent that might be best addressed in another thread. Basically, I believe that if one willfully or negligently harms another, then society should protect itself from possible future harm. Perhaps restraint is a better term than punishment. Although punishment in the form of redress of grievance should be allowed rather than physical/emotional punishment. The only emotional punishment should be societal segregation (not racial) and removal of some freedoms and priveleges.

Swami for president in '04!


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (12/19/02 04:08 PM)

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155614 - 12/19/02 03:00 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Swamster,

I see no flaw in your logic. There was simply a flaw in what I said because I did not clarify myself enough. I will try to do so now:

Okay... By 'serious mental illness' I was specifically referring to either the clinically insane or to people who have been diagnosed with schizophrenia. These people cannot tell wrong from right and have essentially lost their free will.

Your argument that everyone is mentally ill to some degree is not valid in my opinion. In order to be diagnosed as mentally ill, you must have X out of Y symptoms of some specific mental illness. If you don't have X out of Y symptoms, you are not mentally ill. Of course everyone exhibits signs of some sort of mental illness every now and then, but there are only very few people who can truly be classified as mentally ill.

It was people who can be classified as mentally ill that I was referring to. The rest of us are normal, and still have complete free will and hold total responsibility for our actions, in my opinion.

Like I said before, the choices that we make might be affected by our genes/hormones or life experiences, but essentially we still have the choice. You could walk outside right now and kill the first person you see, but you probably wouldn't. Someone who was severly beaten or traumatized as a child and who has high testosterone levels might actually go out and kill someone because it seemed more "okay" in their eyes, but they essentially still had the choice to kill that person or not. Nothing made them kill that person; they simply chose to do so. Certain things may influence a person to make one decision or another, but they do not make the decision for you. You make the decision.

We can all choose how we let our past experiences affect us. It's ridiculous to blame our actions on something or someone else when we ultimately have the free will to make our own decisions and choices. I just can't see how you could see it any other way, but I would be completely willing to see if someone could show me.


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Namaste.

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Offlinesoylent_green
The greatEnitsuj
Female

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155615 - 12/19/02 03:02 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

i agree 99% with shroomism. but thre are thoses people who are mently challanged, and CAN'T stop. they don't know how, it dosen't process properly in there brain that what they are doing is wong. so for thoses few, i hope we can find a way to help them, and for the rest. they have the power to stop


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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: soylent_green]
    #1155629 - 12/19/02 03:08 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah! That's what I was trying to say in a much shorter version. Thanks!


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Namaste.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1155763 - 12/19/02 04:18 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Your argument that everyone is mentally ill to some degree is not valid in my opinion. In order to be diagnosed as mentally ill, you must have X out of Y symptoms of some specific mental illness.
I don't really care about legal defintions and classifications in this discussion. What we are talking about is how much, if any, real choice we have when it comes to cetain actions; not about whether or not one would be convicted in a court of law.

Of course everyone exhibits signs of some sort of mental illness every now and then,
OK, let's start here as we seem to agree on this point. This means that most everyone is less than 100% sane, just as the mentally ill are not 100% insane. Some of us might make destructive decisions 5% of the time; others maybe 10% of the time. So there must be gradations in mental illness and hence gradations of responsibility according to your premise.

If you want to create a viscious guard dog, then beat him as a puppy. Humans are not that much difference when it comes to behaviorial response to stimuli.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155768 - 12/19/02 04:20 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Once again I established a broad principle and left it for the reader to extrapolate the conclusion.

I take it you wanted a more direct answer.

Does this mean that crime, sin, and immorality might not be choices at all, but a reflection of forces outside of our control - at least as it pertains to violence?

The philosophical argument between your question is found in the issues of hard and soft determinism.

Hard determinism says that everything is the universe is predetermined according to physical laws.

Soft determinism says that each of us has limited free will according to various psychological 'forces' such as kleptomania impinging on our free will.

But the philosophical libertarians say that free will is an absolute and they draw upon personal experience for their evidence.

Before your question should be asked other questions leading to it should be asked first. These are:

1. Do human beings have free will?

2. When we say that they do or they do not have free will exactly what do we mean?

By definitons:

1. Is it the ability to act on one's desires?

2. Or is it the capacity to act in a way that is not causally determined by a person's character or circumstances?

Your question is futher complicated by the fact that we never see the inner workings of the mind and we never will. All we ever observe are the direct results of those inner workings.

I side with the philosophical libertarians on this point. I know that free will exists in the first definiton because I experience it. Similarly, I know that the physical universe exists for the same reason.

Any further questions?

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: ]
    #1155861 - 12/19/02 04:44 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

OK, but I ask you then the same question that I posed to shroomism (or any other readers):

Do you believe that your behaviour could not be seriously modified against your current nature given extreme external circumstances? So much so that the you of today would be shocked at the future you?

Now before we go too far afield, I am not talking about someone kidnapping a family member and coercing you to do something against your morla code, nor the government limiting your actions through threats of force or imprisonment. No, I am talking about total behavioural modification.

We know that this can easily be demonstrated in lower mammals. Are we THAT much different?

Also what do you make of the correlation bewteen being beaten and passing along violence? Even if it is not 100%, the affect cannot be discarded as insignificant, or to say that individuals that act out have no moral strength. It may very well be due to neural imprinting and chemicals released when facing certain stimuli.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155938 - 12/19/02 05:13 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting questions with interesting presuppositions.

What you are asking about is the nature of man and how he differs from other animals.

Do you believe that your behaviour could not be seriously modified against your current nature given extreme external circumstances?

Yes, and one does not even need outside coersion.  I think habituation is a sufficient cause for the complete remaking of a human.  How many junkies thought their life would end the way it did?

So much so that the you of today would be shocked at the future you?

Without a doubt.

Also what do you make of the correlation bewteen being beaten and passing along violence?

Most attributes that we possess are a combination of nature/nurture.  So, yes, their is a decided correlation.  This does not absolve us with respect to personal responsibility however.

We know that this can easily be demonstrated in lower mammals. Are we THAT much different?

This is what I call a real question.  The answer is that we are THAT much different!  I would not look to the behavioral modification of man ala Skinner or any of the other materialistic behaviorists to solve the problem of the nature of man.  They are blind guides repeating the errors of their predecessors.

When we get to it I will explain why the chasm between man and the rest of nature is wide and deep.  And why that gulf can never be spanned.

Hopefully it will be interesting. :smile:
 

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: Swami]
    #1155989 - 12/19/02 05:38 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Do you believe that your behaviour could not be seriously modified against your current nature given extreme external circumstances? So much so that the you of today would be shocked at the future you?

Yes.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Morality & Choice [Re: ]
    #1155990 - 12/19/02 05:39 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Hopefully it will be interesting.

I will stay tuned for more piercing insights. :smile: 


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The proof is in the pudding.

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