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Offlinerhizo
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Add psilocybin to substrate?
    #1089152 - 11/26/02 11:59 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Does the mycelium need other tryptamines to be used as precursors to psilocybin/psilocyn production? or can the myc just leech these chemicals(psilocybin/psilocyn) directly from the substrate? I want to steep my post flush casings(aborts and shroom "trunks") in water on a hot plate to leech out the goods. I know about heat so no lectures on this please. Could I add this post flush casing tea in future substrate mixes to get more potent fruits?


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Offlinerommstein2001
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: rhizo]
    #1089194 - 11/27/02 12:12 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I dont think adding psilocin.psilocybin to the medium would have much effect, but adding n,n,DMT could increase the potency, i've heard of using a phalaris grass seed substrate for this.


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Offlineconflux
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: rhizo]
    #1090501 - 11/27/02 10:31 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I know that tryptophan is the only amino acid that has an indole ring, and that both chems that start with "P" have indole rings in them. Tryptophan is also the only amino acid regulated by the gov't. I think you can still buy something that is closely related to tryptohan, maybe 5'HTP or some such.
Yes, I am paranoid.


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: conflux]
    #1092637 - 11/28/02 01:00 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Excerpt from...

TITLE: Biotransformation of tryptamine derivatives in mycelial cultures of Psilocybe.
AUTHORS: Gartz J
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Institut fur Biotechnologie der AdW, Leipzig.
SOURCE: J Basic Microbiol 1989;29(6):347-52
CITATION IDS: PMID: 2614674 UI: 90133446
ABSTRACT: Mycelial cultures of Psilocybe cubensis capable of forming psilocybin and psilocin de novo display a high capacity for hydroxylation of tryptamine derivatives at the 4-position.

Ok, I'm pretty sure psilocybin and psilocin will be sucked up by the fruits from the substrate, but I'm not so sure what will happen after that. Will the psilocin and psilocybin be converted into different(new) tryptamines, or will they stay the same because they are already 4 hydroxylated? Obviously I'm not a chem guru so if someone could shed some light on this it'd be mucho appreciated. Also, I'm in the process of working through this thread and all its links, if you haven't read it and you're interested in this area of cultivation I think you should take a look.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4&Number
=90436&Forum=Forum4&Words=Ayahuasca%20Substrate&Match=Entire%20Phrase&
Searchpage=2&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=90436&Search=true#Post90436

you have to copy and paste the link because I put returns in there so that it wouldn't run across the screen forever.


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: rhizo]
    #1093344 - 11/28/02 08:25 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Not much would happen except the shrooms may obsorb the tryptamines through osmosis. I dont think any additional change would occur but the potencey may be slightly stronger but hardly noticeable.

Using precursors to increase potencey would just be adding more cost to shroom production, and increseing the possibility for contams. I have thought about it my self in the past but it just isnt worth the extra effort, unless you have some new coumpound we dont know about.



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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: EvilGir]
    #1093554 - 11/28/02 01:18 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

i'm not too concerned about the added cost of precursor chemicals because I already own them. i'm also just doing this on a small hobbyist scale, not big time production. anyway, i think the fruits will pretty much contain whatever you put in the substrate which they can't break down. as for the psilocybin and psilocin that the mushies get from the substrate, i'm thinking now that 4 hydroxylated tryptamines can not be 4 hydroxylated again, but anyone with chem knowledge please speak up. anyway, after reading this excerpt from Tihkal i'm convinced more people will be using mycelium for the biosynthesis of new tryptamines.

from Tihkal(4-HO-DET)

Normally, this mushroom species dutifully converts N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) to psilocin, by introducing a 4-hydroxyl group into the molecule by something that is probably called an indole 4-hydroxylase by the biochemists. You put DMT in, and you get 4-hydroxy-DMT out, and this is psilocin. Maybe if you put Mickey Mouse in, you would get 4-hydroxy-Mickey Mouse out. It is as if the mushroom psyche didn't really care what it was working with, it was simply compelled to do its sacred duty to 4-hydroxylate any tryptamine it came across. It was observed that if you put N,N-diethyltryptamine (DET, not a material found in nature) into the growing process, the dutiful and ignorant enzymes would hydroxylate it to 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (4-HO-DET) a potent drug also not known in nature. This is the title drug of this commentary. What a beautiful burr to thrust into the natural versus synthetic controversy. If a plant (a mushroom mycelium in this case) is given a man-made chemical, and this plant converts it, using its natural capabilities, into a product that had never before been known in nature, is that product natural? What is natural? This is the stuff of many long and pointless essays.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: rhizo]
    #1094627 - 11/28/02 09:39 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Using Gartz's work with tryptamine hcl I would be curious  if someone has tried adding 5MeO-tryptamine.4OH-5MeO-DMT should be interesting especially considering the mycelia should still produce it's natural amount of psilocybin and psilocin  :tongue: I personally think additional Phosphorus should be added to support the phosphorylated derivitives production :wink: but whole new experiences could theoreticly be produced by adding targeted tryptamines for hydroxylation at the 4 position.Using mycelia such as semillanceata or baeocystis for the baeocystine content and the enzymatic process by which it is produced also is a pathway to investigate for biosynthesis of unique compounds .Peele's lepiota is purported to contain compounds related to LSA perhaps there are percursors which could be modified into unique lysergic acid amines.I have predicted that this will become the "new wave" of sythesizing compounds in the future and indeed is already in place.the unique thing will be hobbyists doing it in their "backrooms".DPT in a weilli substrate? LSA in Peele's lepiota? Imagine the work that could be done in a less repressive culture? :shocked:WR


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1094880 - 11/29/02 12:30 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Here is a quote from PsiliPharm's thread with his thoughts on the 4 hydroxylating 5meo dmt.

"Well it turns out that the 5-position may be too close to the 4-position to create 4-HO-5-MeO-DMT but you may be able to make 4-MeO-DMT with 4-MeO-Tryptamine in the substrate and you'll probably also end up with some partial methylation meaning 4-MeO-NMT may be present also."

He uses the word "may" a lot so I don't think he's sure what would happen. I assume this would also apply to 5meo DiPT. I think I'll go ahead and try adding 5meo dipt to the substrate as I have some and after trying it I don't particularly like it all that much(too much body load). 4HO Dipt is supposed to be really good, but you need straight Dipt as the precursor.


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InvisibleAlkaloids
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: rhizo]
    #1094936 - 11/29/02 12:57 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

  I bookmarked that other thread you mentioned and will try to read most of it in the next day or two.

    As to 4-MeO-DMT being made from 4-MeO-Tryptamine... that strikes me as improbable.  Mostly due to the fact that I don't know if the fungal enzymes are set up to methylate the nitrogen.
  I like this thread and I think we should really encourage the novel synthesis line of thought some more. 
  nice brain.  :smile: 


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OfflinePsiloSteve
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: rhizo]
    #1095614 - 11/29/02 10:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I'm suprised nobody brought this point up yet... Why would you waste psilocybin like that? Actually, it might help out a little bit, but, my hypothesis is, say you added 5 shrooms to a cake and resulted 5 shrooms off of the cake. You would not get 5 mushrooms which are twice as potent, so, you would still be wasting, if not completely, your psilocybin. I guess if you have a bushel basket of mushrooms laying around it wouldn't hurt to try so you can impress your friends with potency though. I've used bits of mushrooms as an inoculant before and it colonized super fast though. No real difference though in potency.


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: PsiloSteve]
    #1095639 - 11/29/02 10:40 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

now I under stand, the idea of using nature to bio-engeneer new coumpounds is extreemly intresting. But I still think using psilcybin is a waste, maybe the addition of other tryptamine / pre-cursors would be the way to go but it would require an spectrogram to verifiy any additional changes the chemicle composition of the shroom. Or else the trip of the new compounds could just be a placebo effect.
But good luck anyway.


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: PsiloSteve]
    #1095650 - 11/29/02 10:52 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, i know what you're saying. but here's what i'm talking about. instead of throwing out spent substrate(you've already spawned a shitload of dung) or spending a long time cleaning aborts and shroom "trunks" from a casing, you can steep them in water and then use that water for future casing/substrate mixes. however, if you've got a strong stomach i guess you can just drink the liquid...not me. Of course i wasn't talking about adding nice fruits to the substrate, i was referring to waste material. anyway, since starting this thread i have started on this experiment. I cased some cambodian isolate pf cake spawned dung trays with shroom water soaked coir(2 parts)/verm(1 part)/peat(1 part). it seems to be colonizing normally. however, i would advise against making the brew too potent as this will probably have a negative impact on yield.

i read something else interesting about mycelium. some study(sorry can't provide refs.) found that mycelium in liquid culture did not produce psilocin/psilocybin, probably because the precursors were not present. So, in theory you could add your precursor chemical and your final product will be the pure 4-Hydroxylated version...no need for complicated extractions, nice and clean liquid biosynthesis.


Alkaloids, cheers for the compliments mate.


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OfflinePsiloSteve
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: rhizo]
    #1097933 - 11/30/02 07:58 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Rhizo,

Reusing water from soaked cakes is a great way to make your new substrate very prone to contamination, and if you sterilize your new substrate, it would probably decompose all of the psilocybin/psilocin, and other trace alkaloids found in the water, into useless compounds.

Secondly, I've tried to extract the chemicals out of ricecakes a few times with cranberry juice and again with water, and had no effects. You wouldn't get a whole lot of psilocin from the used cake. Spawning the cake into some dung would be a better way to produce more psilocin. The fruits from dung will almost always be more potent if done right, in comparison to brown rice. Great mixup of nutrients. I bet some poo mixed up with some mimosa rootbark would make for some superpotent cubensis.

Anyway, just a few ideas. Hope this helps you a little.

Steve


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Add psilocybin to substrate? [Re: PsiloSteve]
    #1097985 - 11/30/02 09:07 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I was a little vague when I said I "steep" the mixture...should have just said pasteurize. Anyway, I kind of think the whole heat thing has been blown out of proportion. I've boiled shrooms for tea for 15-20 minutes and didn't notice any potency loss, and I've read a lot of other posts where people have boiled longer. So you might lose some psilocin, but if it's waste material anyway then... yeah, dung rules. i'm using the doo for some casing mixes in addition to using it as a substrate. Today I cased a tray with 75% poopy and 25% coir which had been hydrated in my psilocin recycle juice. the other casings i soaked in the juice are colonizing normally with no sign of contams. i don't think the potency will shoot through the roof, but i do think it will give it a little extra boost...of course growing on cow doo doo is a plus.


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