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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: madscientist]
    #333882 -

good post.
so if psilocybin and psilocin are chemical mediators for cellular mechanisms, acting like signalling molecules or hormones, what could their function be? there must be receptors to psilocybin and psilocin somewhere in the fungi, and presumably these receptors would be similar in structure to the receptors in our brains that bind psilocybin and psilocin.
so, it would be interesting, if in fact psilocin and psilocybin are indeed important mlecules for the physiology of the fungi, to do knockout studies which would render the mushrooms unable to produce psilocybin and psilocin and see what effect this has on growth. also, what about mushrooms that don't produce psilocybin and psilocin naturally?
so many questions, so little actual research that has ever been done. lets hope that the MAPS study that is getting under way will break new ground and develop more interest in the musshrooms. then maybe more scientific studies about the biology of the mushrooms, not just the psychological impact on the human consciousness, will be done.
gray1


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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: gray1]
    #334329 -

Alexander Shulgin, if you haven't heard of him, is one of the most important chemists of our century. Here is something that he has to say about mushrooms under the 4-HO-DET entry.

Some fascinating studies have been done in Germany where the metabolically active mycelium of some Psilocybe species have been administered diethyltryptamine as a potential diet component. Normally, this mushroom species dutifully converts N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) to psilocin, by introducing a 4-hydroxyl group into the molecule by something that is probably called an indole 4-hydroxylase by the biochemists. You put DMT in, and you get 4-hydroxy-DMT out, and this is psilocin. Maybe if you put Mickey Mouse in, you would get 4-hydroxy-Mickey Mouse out. It is as if the mushroom psyche didn't really care what it was working with, it was simply compelled to do its sacred duty to 4-hydroxylate any tryptamine it came across. It was observed that if you put N,N-diethyltryptamine (DET, not a material found in nature) into the growing process, the dutiful and ignorant enzymes would hydroxylate it to 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (4-HO-DET) a potent drug also not known in nature. This is the title drug of this commentary. What a beautiful burr to thrust into the natural versus synthetic controversy. If a plant (a mushroom mycelium in this case) is given a man-made chemical, and this plant converts it, using its natural capabilities, into a product that had never before been known in nature, is that product natural? What is natural? This is the stuff of many long and pointless essays.

Check out http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/ for tryptamines and http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/ for all of the phenylethylamines.

I come from brilliance and I return to brilliance. What is this?


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I come from brilliance and I return to brilliance. What is this?

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: ionic]
    #334988 -

i've just finished reading the first sections in pihkal (personal memoirs...) and now from time to time i pick it up and read an entry or two in the back section.
has anyone read thikal? please comment on its virtue

i remember reading that about 4-hydroxylation. would certainly be interesting to try and reproduce the results by adding det to a mycelium culture. however, what is the availability of DET? i'm assuming, without looking at the pihkal entry or the structure, that it would have to be synthesized, and that the materials needed to do this are scarce. additionally, if you had the materials necessary, why not just complete the process chemically...

for the philosophical question: in my opinion, the product is one of a natural process, regardless that the det is not natrually occuring and introduced to the organism, and therefore is a natural product. could be debated in several ways though.

gray1


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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: gray1]
    #335261 -

This might be pushing it a bit for the cultivation section, but... I don't know how many people here have heard of quantum coherence/superconductivity in human brain cells but here is a very simple run down. Microtubules were once believed only to be used for structural integrity in the cells but research found that these microtubules exhibit some fascinating properties. These tubules vibrate at between 100-650 Hz, they shimmer when metabolically active, and seem to exhibit a fascinating quantum computing like property. The tubules are made up of a certain protein that has three distinctive electrical states. These states are like a quantum computer almost 10^7 tubulins per neuron. This would possibly explain some of our difficulties in locating consciousness, and the interesting part to mushrooms is in explaining the relatively intelligent activity of eukaryotic cells. These cells, with no real nervous center, have excellent survival tactics, feeding procedures etc. I don't know much of mycology and cell differentiation, but a bioligist here would be quite helpful. I think that neuropeptide receptors on certain mushrooms cells would bind the psilo's and possibly activate some sort of new quantum state for the tubulin. The consciousness of mushrooms eh? Go to http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu for more and better info. If there is anyone here who knows about cell differentiation and the peptides involved in this process in mushrooms, we may be on to something quite interesting.

I come from brilliance and I return to brilliance. What is this?


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I come from brilliance and I return to brilliance. What is this?

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: ionic]
    #335278 -

i'm a biochemist and this is beyond my scope of knowledge, but i do find it interesting.
my first thoughy in response to your post is that fungi don't have a nervous system, therefore, there aren't any neurotransmitters, no action potential, no neuropeptide receptors.
however, there are definately, and must be, chemical mediators that signal all kinds of things.

what are you getting at? what makes up, and for that matter, if there is, some sort of connective conscious in organisms like plants and fungi?

elaborate please


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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: gray1]
    #335538 -

I may be mistaken on this account, but I believe that each of our cells, or at least most, have receptors, some of which are for serotonin in the heart etc. I think that the cells don't really depend upon the CNS to communicate, but can communicate amongst themselves somewhat. What I am proposing is basically, that something way beyond our current ideas of chem and or life is going on. All od the ancient myths about Teonacactl, the mushroom god, may be more than just human conjecture. There were experiments done, I'll get the name of the scientist who led them, about conscious plants. Some plant was placed in an empty room and one person came in, ripped off a leaf, and left. A second came in, stroked the plant and talked nicely. Now this whole time an EEG or something is hooked up to it, and the eletrical signals are being recroded. The people, came into the room, and the plants electrical signals changed. It knew the difference between the two people. So basically I am saying, there is a whole lot going on behind what we see. Like, we have some idea of what certain neurotransmitters do, but we really have know idea if our emotions change them, or if we change the chemicals. Its a question of causality, and so to say what these psilo's are really there for is tough. So, in conclusion, something much beyond what we currently understand is most likely going on. The physiological necessity of these psilo's may never be understood, because possibly their purpose can not be determined pathologically, but only by experiencing them directly. I see them as the plant world, in total awareness, trying to reconnect itself with other species. Mushrooms help to show us a proper way to live, to further our existence, to love them, and to enjoy the mystery of existence. This post should be in the philosophy section, but anyway.

I come from brilliance and I return to brilliance. What is this?


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I come from brilliance and I return to brilliance. What is this?

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: ionic]
    #336136 -

This is all explained in the book "The Secret Life of Plants" One of the best books I have ever read. It really made me think about vegetarians who want to save the pretty animals so they only eat plants. Plants are responsible for everything we have.. Most are only producers. They provide food, air, water, shelter, etc. But they don't "think" the way we do, so we kill them much more easily than a cow... Amazing.

OPI


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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: Opi]
    #336360 -

i'm not sure that i totally buy into what you're saying yet but i'm absolutely fascinated and intrigued. i'd very much like to read more, please post any references that you reccomend.
opi: private lives of plants is a great book indeed, my father is a botanist and several years ago we both unknowingly gave it to each other as a christmas gift. haven't read it in a while though, could you remind me where it talks about this subject? thanks.
i drove with some colleagues from ny to philadelphia for a work related suymposium today and this evening on the return trip through the industrial wasteland that is new jersey these words came into my mind:
what is this beast called man? so intelligent that it is constantly striving to advance it's technology in an effort to produce a higher quality of life, and yet so stupid that in the process of this strife it is constantly counteracting its efforts by destroying the natural ecosystems which gave rise to man, continue to support all of life, and in reality, it is getting back in touch with nature that could really imporve our quality of life, both physically(physiologically), mentally, and most of all, spiritually.

gray1


hopefully, this thread won't be moved to the philosophy section because it starts off on the scientific/experimental side and have no doubt that it will get back there at some point.


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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: gray1]
    #336434 -

I thnk a major cause for our self-destruction has been a terrible abstraction of the nature of time. As we moved out of caves and to more stable agrarian societies, time began to lose its cyclical nature. We forgot that all is now, because there is an upcoming harvest we must prepare for. The psychological effects of being in a purely agrarian society are very, very much less than that of our industrial society. People live their entire lives tomorrow, two weeks from now, or three years ago. We feel extremely pressed to do something, leave a lasting effect, because there is only so much time left. We want to give something to generations to come. It is funny how our mind has lead us so far off track. We are constantly receiving a flood of information, but we never question it. One of the most profound effects of hallucinogens for me is the destruction of all notions of time. There is only now, and there are constantly myriad things to experience. I really, truly feel that these fungi/plants are producers in so many aspects. I wonder, sometimes, why the kingdom animalia evolved whatsoever. It seems so senseless, the plants do not need us, although they have adapted to us. In order to attempt to save themselves, and the existence of life on this planet they have devised various way of grabbing our consciousness. We can marvel at their beauty, we can use them to feed our children, and we can become one with them during the hallucinogenic experience. Plants are jumping out at me, on every front, saying, "Look, we are here! No reason to fret, be content to exist, be now, grow and flourish." By involving myself in their lifecycles through this cultivation process, and examining biosynthesis of their alkaloids I can gain a very one sided knowledge into their nature. When I am reading or writing about the enzymes and various reactions I always feel something is missing. A glaring, WHY? is looking me in the face. Why do I even have this thrist for knowledge? It's senseless, and is really only lessennig my experience of existence. It helps in many ways, but as Mark Twain said: Now that we understand a rainbow it has really lost its magic. This doesn't mean I'm going to quit yet though. I constantly find amazing things in the realm of science, and by sitting on the edge between science and the mystery of existence, I hope to one day fall over. This quote from deoxy.org seems to fit perfectly:

People have been standing for centuries before a worm-eaten door, making pinholes in it with increasing ease. The time has come to kick it down, for it is only on the other side that everything begins. Raoul Vaneigem

I come from brilliance and I return to brilliance. What is this?


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I come from brilliance and I return to brilliance. What is this?

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: ionic]
    #336700 -

Ionic.. My god!!! Thank you for that site on conciousness. I have been working on a immense project dealing with Quantum mechanics and conciousness, and that site fills in a lot of missing theory for me.. Basically I have developed a model in which QM explains nearly every type of "paranormal" activity. My missing information is basically explaining a feasible physiological basis for the ability of conciousness to select one eigenstate over another. There is a lot to wade through, but I have a feeling I found what I've been looking for. Thanks a lot!

Opi


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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: Opi]
    #6264080 -

I'm fairly confident the reason psilocybes evolved psilocin/psilocybin was the not for animals enjoyment but rather to deter animals from eating it. example if a rat was walking along and came across the mushroom it may eat it then totally trip out and be too scared to go near it again. fruit benefit from being eaten as it fertilizes their seeds but mushroom spore do not need this and in fact would be killed from being eaten

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: leftover_crack]
    #6264223 -

That's ridiculous. Psilocybin is not an effective deterrent in the least. It doesn't kick in for 30 min or so and it's not lethal or even unpleasant. An animal would have no idea what caused the trip.

Effective deterrents are either extremely distasteful or poisonous. Also mushrooms want to be eaten. It's advantageous to be eaten by animals as it helps spread and fertilize the spores.

The deterrent theory has no reasonable basis whatsoever.


-FF

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: fastfred]
    #6267406 -

destroying spores by digestion to me seems like a odd way to spread. no matter how far they are spread if they are destroyed hey won't grow. also animal do understand the relation ship between food they have eaten and side effects (whether its sickness or tripping). rats for example are quite good at making those connections which is why rat poision is often not effective when trying to get rid of rats because with new food they eat a bit to try it out and if there are bad side effects they won't eat it again. this includes other rats around not just the one that tried it. animals are not stupid. if they eat a foos type they haven't had before and then 0.5 an hour to an hour later they begin to trip out they will make the connection. this is what i learnt when i was studying natural plant defenses at uni. and i know mushrooms aren't plants but the same evolutionary forces are applied to both knigdoms.

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: leftover_crack]
    #6276484 -

I believe the spores are able to survive the digestive tract.

Animals aren't going to be able to put together what they ate a half hour ago and any strange effects they are having. If they ate a bunch they might taste and smell the mushrooms in their puke and avoid them in the future, but they're unlikely to eat enough to ever have any highly unpleasant effects.

It is to the mushrooms advantage to be eaten, so the deterrent theory just doesn't make any sense. The effects are also non-lethal, not unpleasant, and slow acting, so it wouldn't act as an effective deterrent.


-FF

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: fastfred]
    #6283921 -

So Fred, you wake up...go get a drink of orange juice(not knowing i dosed it the night before :smile:)....15 mins later(common for onset effects) you start to trip balls. would you make the connection? Id hope you would. Animals are no different...you are an animal!!! Most humans that had not encountered the sensations before would think that they were poisoned. Humans eat mushrooms with anticipation of the effects. If you were a feral child wondering around foraging for food, ate a grip of mushrooms and tripped....you wouldn't likely eat them again. Oh and my cat bit into a glow stick the other week...he freaked out...now if he is bad all I have to do is show him a dead glow stick and he runs and hides. He remembers the glow stick, he isn't likely to play with one again, it wasn't poisonous, didn't make him sick, no adverse effects except it tasted bad. Deterrents can be non lethal and considered pleasant by humans.
Woodchuck Solution
The safe repellent critters find so offensive. Woodchucks, chipmunks, gophers, rabbits, raccoons, moles, voles, squirrels, field mice, armadillos and skunks are all discouraged from feeding and burrowing by this unique formula, which is so objectionable to all rodents but smells wonderful to humans.
Works by smell, affects sinuses and upsets digestive tracks. Won't harm animals but makes the local environment mighty uncomfortable. Primary "AI" is Rosemary, Thyme and Caster Oil. Re-apply every 100 days.


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Save Marc

www.emeryseeds.com
Holy dog shit! Texas? Only steers and queers come from Texas, Private Cowboy. And you don't look much like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down. Do you suck dicks?
-Gunnery Sergeant Hartman(Full-Metal Jacket)

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: ESanceOfCyan]
    #6284009 -

<<If you were a feral child wondering around foraging for food, ate a grip of mushrooms and tripped....you wouldn't likely eat them again>>

What? :smile: How do you think it happened in the first place? :smile:

But what I have observed is that even higher animals (chickens, turtles, deer..) will take various amounts of different mushrooms. I have seen chickens take a single peck or two from jack o lanterns - is this how they benefit annually by worming themselves?

<<Animals aren't going to be able to put together what they ate a half hour ago and any strange effects they are having.>>

That seems to be true in real life here.

<<If they ate a bunch they might taste and smell the mushrooms in their puke and avoid them in the future, but they're unlikely to eat enough to ever have any highly unpleasant effects.>>

Not altogether true. Poor animals sometimes die out here from plant poisoning.

Sorry - off topic but towards ending "animal conjecture" at least! :smile:


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Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: curenado]
    #6284835 -

I think you're giving grazing animals way too much credit in the cogniative department. I say that the cow probably wouldn't ever eat more than a stray bite if it accidentially grazed a little too close to it's own pile of shit. That one tiny bite would then go into it's massive stomach along with perhaps 10 pounds of digesting grass. How much effect do you think it's going to have on a 1000 pound animal?

None. That means no deterrent effect. It also doesn't deter slugs and insects, so I can't see where you see any deterrent effect. The effects aren't unpleasant, so if there are any animals that are deterred then there are probably just as many that are encouraged. It's current evolutionary advantage is it's attractive properties to man, and I don't see any reason to think that that hasn't always been the case.

As for your cat example... If you always beat your cat 15 minutes after he did something would he ever learn not to do it? No.


-FF

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: fastfred]
    #6306825 -

in my experience magic mushrooms are eaten considerably less by slugs and shit the non magic ones. i rarely ever see partially eaten magics but quite often see half eaten normal mushrooms. also humans have not been around long enough to have had anything to do with the evolution of magic mushrooms. it is highly likely that all magic mushrooms evolved from the same ancestor. the odds of each species evolving separately are so amazingly unlikely. magic mushrooms are present on many continents which proves that the first magic species originated before the continents divided perhaps in gondwana land. that was hundreds of millions of years ago. the first even remotely human like species arose no where near that long ago. hence humans liking mushrooms can not possibly have anything at all to do with their evolution. its just not possible.

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: leftover_crack]
    #6324053 -

Lets get a project together.

1) Sequence the genome of P. Cubensis.
2) Determine the genes that code for all enzymes responsible for the biosynthesis of psilocin from tryptophan.
3) Splice these genes into a vector.
4) Transoform a bacteria with the vector and an antibiotic selection marker.
5) Culture the bacteria on a tryptophan medium!

Science fiction, or in the near future?

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Re: psilocybin/psilocin biosynthesis [Re: kmIL]
    #6324090 -

The biosynthesis of tryptophan to psilocin by P. Cubensis very likely is the result of evolution. However, the idea that P. Cubensis evolved this trait because humans enjoy to eat them to achieve inebriation is counterintuitive to the theory of evolution.

While one may argue that the mushrooms want to be consumed by ambulatory mammals to spread their spores, there is a more logical explanation.

I believe that psilocin is a toxin that is supposed to discourage animals from eating P. Cubesnsis. I'm 99% confident that any mammal other than humans would not enjoy the inebriation caused by Psilocin. When an animal eats something like P. Cubsensis and starts to trip out 20 minutes later, they are able to associate the poisoning with the food they have eaten, causing them to remember not to eat that particular item. This is the most likely evolutionary factor that caused these mushrooms to produce this chemical.

Using psilocin to encourage animals to consume the fruits to spread their spores isn't the most effective way by which psilocin increases a fungus' "fitness". "Fitness" is an ecological term that refers to an organisms ability to reproduce. Evolution revolves around random mutations that result in traits that increase an organisms fitness; traits which are then seen in higher frequency due to the increased reproduction of this particular organism.

Psilocin, then, is likely a defense mechanism to deter animals from eating the fruits so that they can mature and produce spores.

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Advanced Mycology
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