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OfflineAscension
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: muaddib]
    #4718705 - 09/27/05 02:42 PM (17 years, 13 days ago)

Okai, even if the shrooms will take the dmt and convert to psilocybin, why bother at all the effort, sure your skipping ahead a few steps from nitrogen by why when adding nitrogen is much easier and simpler, and it will do exactly the same thing, give the shrooms more precursors for the psycolbin. (eg using horse poo or blood and bones fertilizer etc)

Besides bombarding the shrooms with the precursor it needs for psilocybin IS NOT going to make it suddenly produce a whole lot of extra psilocybin. The gentic make up of the shrooms is only going to let it produce X amount of psilocybin content even with a more then optimal level of nutrients.

In other words, if your already going with horse poo or adding the nutrients manually you are getting the most potent shrooms you can possibly get with that genetic make up and the only way to get stronger shrooms is change strains or breed the strongest ones.

If your getting DMT I would eat it with MAOIs and not waste it on a shrooms.

Its a waste of time, if you want a super strong shroom, either genetically modify the shrooms (yeah right) or just keep breading the most potent shrooms, and maybe one day we'll end up with the equivalent of skunk.

Sorry to burst anyones bubble but thats what my years of microbiology and chemistry classes at uni have come to make me believe, but if anyone can prove me wrong, I would love it!


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: Dirtmaster]
    #4718818 - 09/27/05 04:22 PM (17 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Dirtmaster said:
this is all bullshit. just because tryptamine might raise potency, that doesn't mean dmt or tryptophan or lsd will raise potency. groundless speculation...<br><br>




Are you really this dumb? Dr Shulgin thinks it will. J Gartz demonstrated that it does. but YOU don't?


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: Ascension]
    #4720633 - 09/28/05 12:21 AM (17 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:


In other words, if your already going with horse poo or adding the nutrients manually you are getting the most potent shrooms you can possibly get with that genetic make up and the only way to get stronger shrooms is change strains or breed the strongest ones.



Now I'm no advocate of dmt substrates, but this is a mighty bold statement. "THE ONLY WAY", you sure about that? Poo absolutely maximizes the genetic potential? You got any reference whatsoever? You ever tried any other methods of increasing potency? I doubt it. Because this statement is just not true.
Quote:


Besides bombarding the shrooms with the precursor it needs for psilocybin IS NOT going to make it suddenly produce a whole lot of extra psilocybin. The gentic make up of the shrooms is only going to let it produce X amount of psilocybin content even with a more then optimal level of nutrients.


How can you state this so matter of factly? If it works for psilocin, why are you so insistant that it can't be worked out for psilocybin?
Quote:

Sorry to burst anyones bubble but thats what my years of microbiology and chemistry classes at uni have come to make me believe,



What exactly about your years of microbiology and chemistry have lead you to believe this? I can cetainly think of many things I learned in bio and chem classes that can be applied to increasing potency beyond just using poo as a substrate.

You can say what you do, but it goes against the findings and thinkings of some of the best minds in the field.


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: synaptic]
    #4723930 - 09/28/05 11:42 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

Are you suggesting using psilocybe cubensis and other psychoactive mushrooms as a source of DMT? I guess you could add something that would prevent the final indolic hydroxylation, but if you want a fast-growing easily replenishable source of DMT, try canary reed grass.


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OfflineAscension
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4724722 - 09/28/05 07:19 PM (17 years, 12 days ago)

Okai, the amount of psilocybe that a mushie produces can pretty much be classed as a phenotype. Just as the size of the mushie, the colour of the mushie are all phenotypes.
The phenotypes of whatever are of course based on its genotypes.
Different genotypes gives different phenotypes. (basic microbio stuff)

Now lets just say a certain genotype encodes a mushie to have a phenotype tall. Say 5 cms on average.

By giving this mushie the right environment (nutrients etc) you may be able to make the height of this mushie grow to 6, 7 cms on average instead of the average 5 cms.

Just like this good environment will make the content of psilocybe extra then normal, as we see in horse poo.

But what ever you are going to do to that environment you are not going to be able to make all the mushies 20cms on tall on average are you???

Just the same way you cannot make all the mushies "SUPER POTENT" just by giving it a whole lot of DMT or whatever.

Im sorry if I came across rude but im not here to fight with people. And if I came across sounding like I know it all im sorry again, because I know I dont know it all, but thats just my personal opinion. I would rather have a convo here thats civilized then some stupid net fight.

"You can say what you do, but it goes against the findings and thinkings of some of the best minds in the field."

Are you saying people have come across substrates that gave super potency in shrooms? If so i would really like to see the info/article on it.


Edited by Ascension (09/28/05 07:22 PM)


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: Ascension]
    #4725856 - 09/28/05 11:42 PM (17 years, 12 days ago)

I disagree.

Dr. Shulgin and J. Gartz both demonstrated and theorized that p. cubensis mycelia likes to do what chemists refer to as "indolic 4-hydroxylation. Shulgin said that it does this to almost any compound that it comes across that has the availablity on the 4th position to be hydroxylated (the addition of a -OH functional group). He gives examples of adding DIPT to a substrate and ending up with 4-HO-DIPT.

Your theory about mushroom genetics also is somewhat flawed. If a mushroom can grow to 10", then it isn't genetically limited or predisposed to grow 2". I don't know, nor does anyone that I've read, what the genome of a mushroom looks like or what controls what. I think that their is an up-limit to the amount of psilocybin that can be in a mushroom. Mushrooms that were grown on BRF cakes never seemed that potent to me, especially once I started using a compost/manure/straw/worm casting mixture. Maybe adding DMT would produce more potent mushrooms, I tend to think that it would. The mycelia would almost certainly 4-hydroxyl it and make psilocybin/psilocin.

You really don't seem to have that much knowledge of microbiology or chemistry here, not to be rude. What do you think WOULD happen if you added DMT to a brf/verm substrate? would it be as potent as horse manure / compost grown shrooms?

And yes, Gartz said that adding tryptamine (Which would be processed, eventually, into DMT and then psilocybin) produced more potent fruits.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4726609 - 09/29/05 02:49 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

Yes,more potent fruits.

But there is a maximum to every quality which is limited by genetics.For example ,the mushroom can be tiny or non potent if the substrate is not optimal.Also the mushroom can be huge and very potent in optimal conditions. Still though you can expect a psilocybe to reach 5 metres tall (!) or to acquire a 6% concentration of psilocybin/psilocin.Simply,all traits are an outcome of enviromental conditions + genetics within some limits.Maybe after a certain percentage of psilocybin accumulated its production starts getting down regulated.

I guess thats what the poster meant.


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: Psiloman]
    #4727130 - 09/29/05 04:29 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

I agree that their is a "maximum potential" for mushrooms in each category, I just don't see how someone could claim to know what that is and that changine a variable wouldn't push it closer towards that potential.


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OfflineAscension
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4727699 - 09/29/05 06:24 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

Im not claiming I know what the maximum potential is, but i just think we are very close to it. And ive stated my reasons why.

Wouldnt a measure on the nutrients in the substrate before and after the shrooms are grown tell us what we want to know?
If all the nutrients have been depleted after the shrooms are grown then chances are theirs still room for improvement. But if the shrooms are not using up all the nutrients that are available to it, then maybe it has reached its maximum genetic potential?

If its not using all the nutrients in the soil then whats the point of adding DMT to the substrate?

Theres been heaps of talk about adding DMT/TRYP etc to the substrate for god knows how long, im sure people have done it too, but how many reports have their been about super potent shrooms.

The environment can only do so much, the genetics gives the range of these things to happen in.
Its like saying you want to grow a strawberry fruit thats weighs a kilo just by changing the environment it grows in. Its not going to happen.

I never said changing a variable wont push it close to its limits, obviously it will.




Are you trying to say that the shrooms will add a phosphate group to the all the DMT that we add to give us psilocybin?


Edited by Ascension (09/29/05 06:26 AM)


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: Ascension]
    #4727789 - 09/29/05 06:36 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

No, I said that it will add a HYDROXYL functional group at the 4 position. 4-HO-DMT, the phospate ester being 4-HO-DMT as well. Not sure if it would phosphate.


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OfflineAscension
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4728248 - 09/29/05 07:35 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

But the whole point of this discussion is if the shrooms will turn the DMT into psilocybin?

For that to happen a phosphate group needs to be added someway or another to the DMT correct?

Like I said before, im still new to all this shroomery stuff, so I dont want to sound like im coming across acting like I know all about this.

Unless the shrooms uses the 4-HO-DMT as an intermediate precursor between the DMT and psilocybin?
Which im taking a stab in the dark and saying this process resembles the natural process the shrooms take to prodcued the psilocybin?

Either way, their has to be a limit according to the gentic makeup of the shrooms which dictates how much psilocybin can be produced, and ive always believed mother nature to be a master when it comes to this stuff. Thats why I believe we cant be far of the limit, and any advances that are made in making a more potent shroom is not going to be anywhere near as much of a leap as brf/verm to horse poo was.


Edited by Ascension (09/29/05 07:42 AM)


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: Ascension]
    #4728315 - 09/29/05 07:44 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

4-HO-DMT is psilocin, with a phosphate ester is it psilocybin. I am unsure of the metabolic pathway from this psilocin to the +P psilocybin.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: Ascension]
    #4728424 - 09/29/05 07:58 AM (17 years, 12 days ago)

Ascension, I would like to politely state that I thinik you are over your head and not contributing much to this discussion.

You don't think that better results can be had than growing mushrooms on horse poo. So just grow your mushrooms on horse poo.

And ignore that mushrooms have been grown that are far more potent (as measured by total psilly production) than anything you'll grow off of horse poo alone.

Look, it's really simple. There is well documented proof that adding tryptamine increases psilocin production DRAMATICALLY. Now, you can say it doesn't happen all you want, but you can take it up with Dr. Jochen Gartz, I'll give you his email address if you like. Although with your baseless statements and misguided analogies you'll be lucky if he even refers you to his paper on the subject.

Given that DMT is further along in the metabolic pathway than tryptamine, there is a chance that it too will have a similar effect. There are lots of good reasons why it might not work, but none of them are the ones you are posting.

If you have some specific detailed reason why the fungus won't process dmt into psilos like it does tryptamine, then I'm all ears. Otherwise let's just wait for somebody to actually do the experiment.


--------------------
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OfflineAscension
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: mycofile]
    #4728768 - 09/29/05 08:44 AM (17 years, 11 days ago)

okai, great.
Like I said a million times before, im still all new to this mushroom stuff.
And just for the record I never said that it would not process the DMT or Tryptamine into psi, I just said there must be some kind of limit, eg you cant pump it full with DMT and hope to get shrooms with 50% psi content. And that this limit is dictated by the genetics, but if their is proof that added tryptamine increases potency dramatically, then we are obviously no where near the potential we could be at with horse poo.

Im not doubting you one bit, but can you please post the papers of the added tryptamine, because i would love to read up on it.
Do you have info on the metabolic pathway to psi?
Because im sure their are heaps of OTC products, especially body builder suppliments that will contain the intermediate along that pathway.

How about addind Melatonin (5-methoxy-tryptamine), its as easy to get as milk and bread from any chemists. Infact ive got a bottle upstairs somewhere. Id love to test it out mixed in with the next batch.


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InvisibleBaldCuban
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: Ascension]
    #4729980 - 09/29/05 01:41 PM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Ascension said:
okai, great.
Like I said a million times before, im still all new to this mushroom stuff.



The most brilliant statement you have made in this thread.
You have much to learn about mycology. Sometimes that requires looking stuff up and reading.

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/24373

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/7953

There is even more information available out there than what is contained in this site. Look up Jochen Gartz on google for starters.
No one is claiming to increase psilocybin production beyond the genetic capability of the fungus. Of course there are limits.
Discredit Gartz's work when you have a better grasp of the higher fungi. Maybe it can be your master's thesis. Until then your opinion isn't worth horse shit and brown rice.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: Ascension]
    #4732499 - 09/30/05 12:50 AM (17 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Do you have info on the metabolic pathway to psi?



Well, humidity posted this earlier in this very thread:
Quote:


L-tryptophan --> tryptamine
tryptamine --> N-methyltryptamine
N-methyltryptamine --> N,N-dimethyltryptamine
N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) --> psilocin & psilocybin



I didn't fact check it, but I'm sure you can if you want.

Quote:

How about addind Melatonin (5-methoxy-tryptamine),



Well, here's a thread I read less than 24 hours ago:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post4534263
There are other posts on the subject which you could find if you search. In the mushroom areas of this site alone, there are 5 threads with the word melatonin in the title over the last 5 years, 11 threads with the word in the title or body of the main post, and 88 occurances of melatonin within main posts and responses. You should have no trouble finding them.

Here's a little tip on the advanced forum though. If you read a post about something you don't understand, it's best for you to search for related posts which might spell it out for you. It's a little frustrating to have to provide people with the basic information about a subject rather than discussing the subject itself. It's especially frustrating when this comes up because somebody is refuting the basics involved without even knowing about them....It's ok to be new, it's ok to not know everything, and it's ok to even disagree with people. But in the advanced forum all of this goes over better if you have done your research first.


--------------------
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-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Offlineradio943dmt
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: mycofile]
    #5026032 - 12/07/05 06:44 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

There are two Gartz studies, i copied and pasted my reply to another DMT thread to this one so when people do a search they'll see my post,

It looks to me from this study:

Addition of DET Gartz study (Oct. 1988)
http://www.geocities.com/radio879z/psilocybebio.pdf

And this study already on the shroomery,

Addition of Tryptamine Gartz study (March 1988):
http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/7953

That addition of DMT to the substrate may provide just as much potentiation / increase in psilocin as adding Tryptamine HCl.

Both studies show 5 flushes and up to 3.3% 4-hydroxy-DET/DMT out at the end.

Here's another image,

http://www.geocities.com/radio879z/psilocybes_enzymesteps.gif

A friend of mine in another country recently got ahold of a couple grams of Tryptamine freebase, and he does have mimosa bark and DMT, also his friend has access to analysis equipment..

So hopefully sometime soon he'll be able to inoculate several jars, some with tryptamine added, some with ground up mimosa bark added, a jar or two with nothing added..

Now, its easy to make the HCl salt of tryptamine, but just as easy to make the phosphate salt (he has some phosphoric acid), and the point of making a salt of Tryptamine (or DMT) is to make it water soluble right? so..

Quote:
The results in Table 1 show that the enzyme systems in Psilocybe cubensis have a high hydroxylation and methalation capacity to convert added Tryptamine to psilocin. It is possible that a reduced amount of phosphate in the culture media decreased the bio-synthesis of psilocybin from psilocin in the media.



For psilocybin, for the phosphoryloxy group, where does it get that from? I would think possibly using phosphoric acid instead might result in more psilocybin production, he has IMed DMT phosphate solution before, adding 1/3 molar phosphoric acid (1 molecule of phosphoric acid can attach to 3 DMT molecules, enough to make it water soluble), but each psilocybin molecule has its own so I could add an equal molar amount of phosphoric acid per tryptamine or DMT molecule, i'm wondering what is the best ph, or a range for the ph that the substrate should or could be for proper growth?

I haven't read up on it but some of you might know, what effect does ph have on mushroom growth in general? How much phosphoric acid could he add to the substrate mix, to add more phosphoric acid but not let the ph drop too low?

It'll be a while til he could get some results, but from everything i've read it seems like adding either tryptamine or DMT to the substrate would probably produce super incredibly potent mushrooms, probably equally, but since Tryptamine is hard to obtain - mimosa root bark IS NOT hard to get and INCREDIBLY cheap!

In that study i linked to above (Oct. Gartz study) they added DET (also talks about adding NMT resulting in more baeocystin), got mushrooms with as much as around 3.3% of the dry weight of 4-HO-DET out (same percent as adding Tryptamine HCl), both studies show a chart with 5 flushes and similar % numbers.

Now i'm not sure why this hasn't 'caught on' yet, because people HAVE added DMT to the substrate and gotten super potent mushrooms out, and if its as easy as simply adding a little ground up mimosa hostilis root bark to your substrate i'd think once enough people started doing it, ...well who wouldn't want to do it?

Typically mimosa bark has 0.57% DMT by weight (average maybe.. often more), thats around 50mg per 10g bark, I got some info from someone who's added different amounts of DMT per jar and found that for a "pf style" jar, 30mg - 40mg produced more potent mushrooms and 50mg seemed to be the max in his experiments they would take, and adding 60mg+ didn't hurt anything but didn't add any more potency than 50mg - but the 50mg or more jars produced some mega godly potent shrooms!

So looking at those numbers lets say typical dried mushrooms contain 0.6% combined psilocin & psilocybin, so a 5 gram cubensis trip would be around 30mg psilocin/psilocybin (correct me if my numbers are off).

Now if you have dried cubensis with average 3.0% psilocin then 5 grams would be more like 150mg's.. 5x as potent, or lets say even 2.0% would be over 3x potency, which seems to be what people have been reporting from just adding DMT (at least 2x, up to around 5x potency, depending on flush and other things).

The price of 1kg mimosa root bark can be had for as low as $100, enough for 100 "pf style" jars, costing $1 per jar to add 10g bark for such a huge potency increase..

Ok even if you didn't get 5x potency by just tossing in 10g bark, a dollar for 2x potency at the lowest, ain't too bad..

---
I don't know if its ok (against the rules or what) but I have bags of mimosa bark just 'laying around' with nothing to do which i'd happily give away to anyone (the bark is legal to have) wanting to hang up for ordamental purposes or anything not illegal of course.

I'd love someday to see a Mega thread on the shroomery sorta like that coffee thread, just about people's experiences with adding Mimosa root bark to their substrate, I think its one of those things that just hasn't 'caught on' yet but would if people actually started trying it (did i mention how CHEAP the bark is?? )


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Offline70skid
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: radio943dmt] * 1
    #5026121 - 12/07/05 06:58 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

how do you extract the DMT? and if you can extract it, why not just trip off it? supposed to be THE best hallucinogen around.


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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: 70skid]
    #5026820 - 12/07/05 09:28 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)



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Offline70skid
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Re: Lets start fresh...DMT substrate [Re: scattass]
    #5031576 - 12/08/05 07:47 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

read that once before... seems like way too much work to then add to substrate


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