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Invisibleph_plus
Malkawian

Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 556
Loc: Constantinople
effect of phosphorus in substrate...........................
    #1671988 - 06/29/03 08:06 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I've read some articles saying that phosphorus is good for mycellium and mushies. And i know that pigeon poo is high in phosphorus ( but i'm not satisfied enough to use it in my substrate). And i can find it easily in big amounts. So here is the question;
1) What's the exact effect of phosphorus on fungus?
2) Since i'm not sure about the ratio of phosphorus in pigeon poo, how much shall i use in my bulk substrate (if it's usefull for the myce. or shrooms) ?
3) Does too much phosphorus has a negative effect on the substrate?

Any links or answers would be really helpfull! And thank you for your time.


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The word truth...... doesn't make any sense..... As if the word sense...... which isn't the truth.........


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Offlinefugu
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 2,223
Loc: istanbul
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
Re: effect of phosphorus in substrate........................... [Re: ph_plus]
    #1672039 - 06/29/03 08:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

what about pig poo s any ideas.


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OfflineSafeHaven

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 191
Last seen: 5 months, 4 days
Re: effect of phosphorus in substrate........................... [Re: ph_plus]
    #1673544 - 06/30/03 10:39 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Any bird poo in general is high in phosphorus from my understanding, though there probably is a exception or two to the rule.

I was raised on a 60,000 laying hen chicken farm with cows and pigs too. The chicken poo has a high concentration of P in it.

Not sure about swine though.


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As I sit here I ponder greater things.


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Invisibleph_plus
Malkawian

Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 556
Loc: Constantinople
Re: effect of phosphorus in substrate........................... [Re: SafeHaven]
    #1675338 - 06/30/03 11:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

    I'd really appreciate if some of the  advanced cultivaters reply to my post.....
:wink: Does phosphorus work?


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The word truth...... doesn't make any sense..... As if the word sense...... which isn't the truth.........


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Invisiblepsyphon
mneumatic device

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 565
Re: effect of phosphorus in substrate........................... [Re: ph_plus]
    #1675797 - 07/01/03 02:57 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Look at  this.  See the phosphorus atom in the psilocybin molecule?  Psilocybin is more stable than psilocin; less likely to decompose when drying, etc.  Theoretically, adding phosphorus would enable more psilocin to be converted to psilocybin. 

One theoretical application of this is adding phosphorus to precursor enhanced substrates.  When tryptophan, tryptamine, DMT, etc are used to increase potency it seems that the psilocin levels skyrocket but the psilocybin levels don't.  Presumably, phosphorus could be added to convert this extra psilocin to psilocybin.

There exists fertilizer that specifically increases phosphorus.  One example of this is called triple super phosphate.  Don't forget that you might need to ph balance the substrate after adding this.

:thumbup: 


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"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

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Offlineelphstone
Stranger

Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 3
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: effect of phosphorus in substrate........................... [Re: psyphon]
    #1706970 - 07/11/03 09:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The original O.T. Oss & O.N. Oeric recommended adding potassium phosphate to the substrate, presumably to increase psilocybin content?

I'm not familiar with any studies that validate increased psilocybin content when this is done.

Elfstone


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Invisiblemicro
bunbun has a gungun
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Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
Re: effect of phosphorus in substrate........................... [Re: elphstone]
    #1707741 - 07/12/03 03:10 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I could make something up, but I really don't have an exact answer. I don't think phosphorus would increase potency by itself because it's way too early in the pathway to make a real difference taking into account downregulation by precursors, but the idea of adding it to a tryptamine enriched substrate is very interesting. I'm not sure if this is Gartz et al. or a commentary on his experiment with tryptamine, but I found this on my computer:

Quote:

It is possible that a reduced amount of phosphate in the culture media decreased the bio-synthesis of psilocybin from psilocin in the media.




The only question I would have relating to that assumption is where the hell did all the phosphorus go? The change may be from a downregulation mechanism to prevent accumulation of the compounds, too (we know that there are enzymes that dephosphorilate psilocybin;) who knows???? It could be almost anything. If my math is correct, however, for each dose of mushrooms (dried 2g, 1% psilocybin) ~ 2.15mg of P is needed which seems relatively small (even given multiple flushes more than a dose -- 15.5g P should be needed per half ounce dry mushrooms.) Compared to the 55mg that would be in ~ one cake's worth of brown rice (given as 1/2 cup cooked unenriched rice, no vermiculite.) I got ~ 28.5 mg P per jar according to general fungi media recipes; 28.5+15.5 = 44 mg, so there's still room to spare, assuming 1/2 oz dry yield per cake and also assuming it'll need the whole 28.5 mg P for bioreactions aside from the production of psilocybin. I would assume it's not a limiting factor in BRFV, either, because a lot of it should just get stored in the vacuoles, but that's just speculation. Keep in mind if you are increasing the alkaloid content, however, it very well might become a limiting factor within the species. I'm going to ignore the ratios of stronger psilocybe mushrooms than cubensis, however, because they have their own metabolic pathways where efficiency has been stabilized in many ways through evolution.

I haven't come across *any* extensive research pertaining to the part of the Shikimate pathway that's specific to psilocybin, let alone something as specific as this. I haven't come across many reports of growth and potency on tryptamine-enriched substrates, let alone the phosphate content in relation to the psilocybin:-cin ratio. There are a bunch of related journal ref's I came across (no abstract, let alone articles;) if anyone has any way to post any of these it would be more than greatly appreciated (some are pretty old:)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=5684731&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=5689110&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=5750023&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=4964038&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=5948634&dopt=Abstract

Back to the phosphate -- you can certainly use either KH2PO4 or K2HPO4 to raise the P content. The former is more soluble, but will make the substrate a bit more acidic. The latter shouldn't really change the pH. As for bird crap, I don't know; you'd have to look this one up.

I also came across a journal article about phosphorus at work, but I think it was about mycorrhizal fungi. I'll check next week.

That's all I could come up with; keep in mind there is no reason an addition of P couldn't increase the psilocybin : -cin ratio of a tryptamine enriched substrate. I doubt it's a decrease in the phosphate content of the substrate, but could possibly be a result of the increase in alkaloids creating a need for more phosphorus if the pathway is not efficient enough in that respect. It could also be a downregulatory method that inhibits phosphorylation, for example, to conserve nutrients or energy it may have been lacking at some point in the specie's lifetime. The only way to tell, however, would be to experiment with it and find out.

I also might add that wheat straw has less P in it, but there's usually a lot of straw when doing bulk. I have no idea what effect this might have on the concentrations; anyone ever heard of an increase in psilocin on straw vs. rice?

Just my opinion.

--
Micro


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Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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