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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: machineelf368]
    #1083170 -

Impressive.

Cheers,

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: ]
    #1083384 -

So what you are saying is that scientific dogma doesn't exist.
I actually speak and write quite clearly without hidden meaning.

Most "believers" in scientism assume that the scientific answer must be the correct one. Why? Because science says so, that's why.
This was not stated nor implied.

Circular proofs are hardly convincing to anyone who can reason.
A true statement which has nothing to do with my post.

Scientists are a subset of society, and as such, represent all beliefs. As a Computer Scientist, I was never initiated into any Secret Society to suppress esoterica. Hell, the Heaven's Gate devotees were mostly IT professionals.

The original statement: The problem is that mainstream science knows that PK can't happen ...

This was NOT in any coursework that I took. Who and where is this "mainstream" science that knows? Who belongs to it? In what university may I find this indoctrination? This is a fictional construct, fabricated by a frustrated metaphysicician to "explain" the lack of PK.

PK fails not because of any mindset, but because it cannot be demonstrated.





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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: Swami]
    #1083442 -

Aw Swam, you knows I loves ya! :wink:

Yes, I was not referring to your actual text.  I was referring the extrapolation of the meaning of your text. You know, just like the scientists do. :wink:

Your statement:

"Scientists are a subset of society, and as such, represent all beliefs. As a Computer Scientist, I was never initiated into any Secret Society to suppress esoterica. Hell, the Heaven's Gate devotees were mostly IT professionals.

The original statement: The problem is that mainstream science knows that PK can't happen ...

This was NOT in any coursework that I took. Who and where is this "mainstream" science that knows? Who belongs to it? In what university may I find this indoctrination? This is a fictional construct, fabricated by a frustrated metaphysicician to "explain" the lack of PK."

clearly shows that not only does the mindset exist but they you are one of the "believers" in science.

I hope that's not offensive to you because that is certainly not the way I meant it.  It is entirely possible that I have misjudged you but you will have to do some convincing for me to "believe" it.

If you'd like I can post a definition of metaphysical naturalism found in any good philosophical encylopedia.  This is a real belief system but the "believers" always tell you they don't "believe" it.

As far as the telehoogy stuff is concerned I have no opinion one way or the other.  I just try to keep an open mind. :wink:

Cheers, 

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: Swami]
    #1083466 -

"The attitude of many scientists was summed up in 1955 in an article in Science, one of the nation's most prestigious scientific journals. Under the title "Science and the Supernatural," a chemist, George Price, wrote a review article the essence of which was: no intelligent man can read the evidence for the existence of extrasensory perception and doubt that it exists, but, since we know it is impossible, we must conclude that all this evidence is due to error and fraud. (Tart, 1983, p. 119)"

This is a fictional construct, fabricated by a frustrated metaphysicician to "explain" the lack of PK.

This is certainly NOT a fictional construct. It is the words of a scientist ensconced in his precious science. If you want to know where to sign up just look for the university where Dr. Tart did his dissertation. I'm sure they can hook you up.

Cheers,


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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: ]
    #1083505 -

It is the words of a scientist

a
a
a
a

How does a = mainstream?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: ]
    #1083833 -

I'd like to read the whole article, for one thing. Looks to me like it's been taken out of context.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: Swami]
    #1084338 -

Ask your girlfriend, Swami  :tongue:

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: Grav]
    #1084355 -

Ummm, she has her mouth full right now...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: Swami]
    #1084683 -

I am not sure what you mean by "mainstream"?  If you are referring to an overarching belief system that all scientists have there is no such thing.  However, that is not to say that metaphysical naturalism is not real.  It most certainly is.  The scientist quoted looks like he has a bad case of it.


Poor fellow, there is so much more to life.  :frown:

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: Phluck]
    #1084697 -

I'd like to read the whole article, for one thing. Looks to me like it's been taken out of context.

One of the gambits played by believers in science is the "quote-mining" gimmick. When faced with the obvious truth that science can have and does have a metaphysical component they dodge the issue and accuse the other side of taking things out of context. It's a nice rhetorical trick, but that's all it is.

I am not saying you are doing this but I mentioning I have seen replies like yours before.

As I read it, it is definitely in context.

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: Swami]
    #1085266 -

Mmmm... Apple Jacks

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: ]
    #1085921 -

I am not sure what you mean by "mainstream"?

It was machineelf that first used that term in this thread so check with him.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: ]
    #1086076 -

By "mainstream" science I mean the science that is taught in introductory college textbooks. Since we're talking about parapsychology here, by "mainstream" I mean the members of the American Psychological Association (or their counterparts the Biritish Psychological Society or regional equivalent). I've read the official APA book on "anomalous experiences" such as psi, OOBEs, alien abduction and the like. They clump all those and more in the same category and look at it from a purely phenomenological perspective. They no longer believe such states are symptoms of pathology, but they also don't believe there's any 'objective' truth to such matters.

Getting back to the discussion on psychokinesis, though. Let's take that meta-analysis I mentioned. We have a pretty consistent correlation between (A) willing something to happen, like a random number generator (RNG) to do something not random; and (B) that exact thing happening, like the RNG in fact doing that non-random thing. There are three possibilities as I see it to explain this:
1) A causes B. The human mind can somehow influence subatomic decay rates, computer circuitry, or larger things like spoons and tables.
2) B causes A. The RNG influences the human mind to will the non-random event the RNG is about to produce.
3) C causes both A and B. Some as yet unknown force or principle simultaneously causes the human mind to will something and the RNG to behave non-randomly.

It seems to me that 2 is the least likely. The human mind wills something to happen 100 times and it actually happens 53 times, let's say. A radioactive isotope, a pack of cards, a teaspoon or what have you is telling the person what to think those 53 times, but the other 47 times it's not influencing the human mind, yet the human still wills a certain event to happen. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
3 doesn't seem that likely either. Some outside factor causes the human to will an event those 53 times, and it also causes the event to happen. But again, the human mind is willing that same event 47 other times. The fact that factor A does not change implies, to me at least, that nothing is influencing it other than itself.
1 does not necessarily imply PK, of course. There could be a ghost which picks up on the person's intentions and causes the RNG to behave non-randomly. That's the explanation Price, in that Science article, gives. More likely is that some currently unknown force emitted by the human can influence an object at a distance. This force could be similar to x-rays in the 1700s, existing but undetectable. A third option is that the mind directly influences the object, with no intermediary. This is the parapsychological explanation.

So we have 3 explanations. I have two questions: Is there a 4th possibility I overlooked? and Which eplanation makes most sense?
-m


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(the above was deciphered from phi (~1.62) using an advanced alphanumeric conversion algorhythm and should not be perceived as meaningful.)

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: ]
    #1086094 -

This is a fictional construct, fabricated by a frustrated metaphysicician to "explain" the lack of PK.

This is certainly NOT a fictional construct. It is the words of a scientist ensconced in his precious science. If you want to know where to sign up just look for the university where Dr. Tart did his dissertation. I'm sure they can hook you up.

Please go back and reread my post. Taking my quote and applying it to something different is not becoming. My reference was to the author's summation NOT the scientist's words.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: machineelf368]
    #1086166 -

Thank you for clarifiying your definition. I was not being picky there as it is quite germaine to the discussion.

There are a few more that speak against PK.

4. The parapsychologist wittingly or unwittingly has made errors or in some way has biased the test.

5. Results unfavorable to the basic premise are not reported. (We discarded Mary's test because she doesn't have the "power".)

6. The results have no meaning, but are assigned some significance. In 1,000 coin flips, it will rarely come out 500 heads and 500 tails even in an unbiased test. So statistical manipulation comes into play.

These experimental oversights have happened many times, so would be where I would look first.


The Swami PK Test is (nearly) foolproof and has already been presented on the shromery. Make a large, massive stone dias that is impervious to vibration with a built in seismograph. Bolt it to the floor of the Smithsonian or other prestigious science museum. On top of the dias in a heremetically sealed vacuum sphere, place a perfectly balanced metallic needle of tiny mass only a millimeter away from a conducting wire. All visitors are encouraged to attempt to move the needle with their mind, either collectively or individually. With millions of annual visitors, you would be drawing from a huge slice of the populace.

The beauty of this, is it only takes ONE HIT. All of the speculative and data manipulating B.S. is removed. It would finally be a matter of public record. Of course after years with no movement, the parasychologists would be clever enough to invent new reasons why it couldn't be done in this open fashion.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: machineelf368]
    #1088245 -

Thank you for taking the time to post that.  I learned a lot.  This topic doesn't hold a lot of fascination for me but I am always interested in the paranormal

Thanks!!!!!  :smile:

Cheers,

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: Swami]
    #1088254 -

Ah but dear Swami "becomingness" as in beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I turned it around because you refused to acknowledge that the 'scientist' was a clear example of scientism and a worshiper of science in his own right.

His attitude is 'unscientific' at best and religious at worst.

Don't take it personal because it wasn't meant that way.

Cheers,

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: ]
    #1088294 -

Ah but dear Swami "becomingness" as in beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Nice try. Juxtapositioning a quote below a paragraph that it did not refer to is unethical. No wiggling allowed.


(BTW thanks for the tape. Have not viewed it yet.)


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: Swami]
    #1088314 -

Swami!!!!!!!!  I am so glad you got it before Thanksgiving because that's why I sent it priority!  I am thrilled.  Send me a critique in a PM.  :wink:

As far as the unethicalness of my answer is concerned the most you will get out of my is an apology if I crossed some barrier you found sacrosanct.  My intention was to get you to think, nothing more nothing less.  If this were a habit of mine you would have known it long before now.

I apologize.

Better? 

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Re: Christ like abilitys? [Re: ]
    #1088329 -

Now I have lost all respect for you not standing your ground. If you know anything at all about me, you know I require no apology, I just enjoy the banter.  :smirk: 


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The proof is in the pudding.

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