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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10688154 -

I don't see how my point is irrelevant to the topic. Bluecoyote expressed his opinion on what he considered to be the "real" efficiency, which I interpret to mean as the one he sees as being the one he feels has more importance. How is it irrelevant for me to demonstrate that it is fallacious for OC to accuse him of not having the basic understanding of physics because he stresses the importance of a different type of efficiency over the one OC had mentioned? :wtf:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10688202 -

I read the thread.  Bluecoyote's or your personal, alternative definitions of efficiency are not relevant to the comparison between plant's ability to turn light into energy and PV cell's ability to turn light into energy.

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: DieCommie]
    #10688211 -

I did not realize this topic was such a landmine. Stay tuned for my next highly controversial subject: Why fruit tastes sweet.


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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10688264 -

Qubit said:
I read the thread.  Bluecoyote's or your personal, alternative definitions of efficiency are not relevant to the comparison between plant's ability to turn light into energy and PV cell's ability to turn light into energy.


I don't see how anything is relevant to the comparison, considering that the comparison is completely meaningless beyond simply being a set of facts. :lol:
The efficiency ratio of a PV cell provides absolutely no commentary on any short-coming of the efficiency ratio of a plant, which is the context in which the comparison was being placed.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: DieCommie]
    #10688356 -

Yeah, exactly.  I can't see what fireworks_god's post has to do with anything.



It seems like more semantics.  The topic of this thread seems quite clear to me, as qubit identifies.  The fact that, for example, you could use efficiency to represent the amount of power wasted by channeling it away from a given system, doing no useful work at all, like a lightning rod might do, doesn't mean that's a good definition to start using here all of the sudden.  In fact that would be entirely opposite of the use employed in this thread.  Why would anyone start using that definition of the word?  I don't know, but maybe we should call plants that waste a ton of energy highly efficient- cuz they are able to waste a tremendous amount very quickly and with little expenditure...

Then I could argue the least efficient plant (old definition) is actually the most efficient (new definition) by virtue of its ability to waste energy!

Qubit said:
I think people are making up new definitions for efficiency because they dont like the idea that nature could be inefficient, it contradicts their pre-held beliefs.  Instead of challenging those beliefs its easier to just redefine efficiency...



Exactly.  I think this is exactly what they are doing.


They're just changing the definitions of the word so as to fit their preconceived notions of harmonious nature or the perfect state of an ecosystem, or some similar concept.  For whatever reason, people view the status quo with some reverence which is entirely unrecognized even by them, generally, and certainly undefended.  To defend this reverance, it seems as if people are just using words in new ways so as to defeat inconvieniant truths- like the fact that plants may not be that efficient. 

Whenever science gets brought up in this forum it seems that semantic games are sure to follow.


It wouldn't even be a problem if people would clearly identify what they are doing, but they just go on about different concepts while using the same word. 


They should really add some aditional code to this site.  A little mark that could be placed on the operative words could suffice- if you see that mark you know that in that post the person hasn't suddenly redefined the word to mean something different than its meaning throuought the rest of the post. 

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: johnm214]
    #10688379 -

johnm214 said:
Yeah, exactly.  I can't see what fireworks_god's post has to do with anything.


Read above response (assuming you missed it since you were making that huge post). Let me know if things are still unclear for you. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: johnm214]
    #10688382 -

Quote:
Or, you know, people could just stop changing definitions to suit their needs and clearly identify when they are departing from the clear meaning a word has been used to represent thus far in the thread.


If that happened, this thread would have been a one-pager.


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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10688399 -

Well, I did miss those posts (was away from my computer for a bit while composing that reply) I still don't understand the relevance of your statmeents.



It does seem as if you've redefined the meaning of a word which conflicted with some notions of our ecosystem, and suddenly started using a new definition so as to make a set of facts less inconvenient.


The problem, as qubit identifies, is that this new definition of efficiency has little relevant to the topic of the thread.



Again, maybe we could use efficiency to refer to the amount of energy able to be wasted by a system (like a lightning rod) per energy unit invested.  Just cuz that's a fine definition doesn't mean it makes sense to use that definition of efficiency in this thread- breaking with the meaning of that word thus far.  Simply put, this thread discusses the efficiency of plants in capturing/using (don't know which) the energy available to them by light, and some alternate definition of efficiency doesn't inform this at all, and it seems a bit bizzarre to suddenly change definitions of the word midstream.

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10694104 -

Exactly, the efficiency of photosynthesis, measured in volts, has nothing to do with the plant's efficiency of using sunlight.
Thanks fireworks, that's the direction I intend(ed) to discuss.

My inglish may not be the best, but be assured, I have the same troubles to express what I think, even in my native language hehe

[Hey Gomp, do you get what I'm talking about ? :laugh: :thumbup:]


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10694339 -

Well hey, as long as you're fluent enough in German, you're excused for not dumbing down your thoughts to mere English. :tongue: I'm close to being fluent in Romanian, which is infinitely more complex than English, but I appreciate it as a challenge to sharpen my mind instead of cursing being dealt a bad mother tongue. :wink:

Personally, I haven't proposed any idea regarding what I consider to be the "efficiency" of plants, but I do feel the need to point out when you're simply proposing an alternate sense of efficiency to show a different perspective on the matter rather than trying to ignore or hide from the facts of the perspective on the matter that was the original post.

It only makes sense to propose different perspectives on the matter, different conceptions of efficiency as it is relevant to plants, when the comparison between solar cells and plants in the context of plants being less efficient is patently baseless in the first place.

Two simple facts, the efficiency ratio of photosynthesis, have no meaning compared to each other beyond the simple idea that they are the two facts.

When a solar panel manifests itself from a seed, interfaces with the soil and the air, not just the Sun, in order to support its life functions and to be of a form capable of photosynthesis, then we can start comparing the handiwork of nature to the handiwork of humans, bearing in mind that humans, of course, not only will have cribbed like crazy from nature, are also nature itself, to determine who has mastered the art of efficiency. :hehehe:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10694474 -

I'm close to being fluent in Romanian,

Romanian's have their own language?:whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Icelander]
    #10694534 -

Sugi pula! :suckit:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Edited by fireworks_god (07/17/09 02:47 PM)

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10694645 -

Spreech english prease.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Icelander]
    #10694680 -

The emoticon speaks for itself. :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10694736 -

Now now, don't get offended cause you live in a third world country.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Icelander]
    #10694757 -

Icelander said:
I'm close to being fluent in Romanian,

Romanian's have their own language?:whoa:


We even have a post office! :snub:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10694777 -

Hard to believe since I haven't received any mail from you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Icelander]
    #10695273 -

FWG is very close to being a full-fledged vampire.


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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10695319 -

Quote:
When a solar panel manifests itself from a seed, interfaces with the soil and the air, not just the Sun, in order to support its life functions and to be of a form capable of photosynthesis,


When a solar panel is indistingushable from a plant, then we can continue this discussion?

Is it OK if I say that an airplane is faster than an eagle?


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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10695425 -

Only if it doesnt make nature look bad.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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