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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #10675683 -

Only in the philosophy forum can efficient be redefined to mean using less available energy.  You guys crack me up.  :lol:

Plants absorb only what the need?  Well considering they are getting cut down faster than they are growing it would seem they need to absorb a little more.  Maybe somebody should tell them.

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10675687 -

And then they wouldn't be so pretty for us to look at, or be abundant enough to feed all the little critters.

Thank you God, for making trees just right!  :heartpump:

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #10675694 -

Nature has waste and inefficiency as part of it's balance. On the whole everything works in a messy chaotic way. :crazy2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: DieCommie]
    #10675696 -

Plants do not control the rain nor do they control the location of nutrients in the soil, which they would need in equal measure along with the boundless sunlight.

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Icelander]
    #10675716 -

Icelander said:
Nature has waste and inefficiency as part of it's balance. On the whole everything works in a messy chaotic way. :crazy2:


I heard that Orgone has taken to eating his own waste in order to become more efficient.  Talk about messy!

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Icelander]
    #10675733 -

Icelander said:
On the whole everything works in a messy chaotic way. :crazy2:


Only because 99% of 'gods creations' havent worked and have gone extinct.  If only they were more efficient 'designs' then maybe they would have worked too...

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10675739 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a tree was as efficient as a solar panel it would need only 1/230 as many leaves, which would mean fewer and thinner branches and so on. Most of its energy is wasted in bulding a zillion inefficient 'solar collectors' to compensate for the poor design.


In which case they wouldn't be nearly as effective at feeding other species, holding back rainwater, creating micro-climates, etc.  Trees do a hell of a lot more than take in solar energy.


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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Silversoul]
    #10675746 -

Or it could grow 230 times faster with the same leaves making it much more effective at feeding other species, providing micro-climates, etc.

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: DieCommie]
    #10675754 -

Qubit said:
Or it could grow 230 times faster with the same leaves making it much more effective at feeding other species, providing micro-climates, etc.


Or it could reproduce to produce a forest that does those things much more effectively than a large individual tree.


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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Silversoul]
    #10675768 -

Nope, doesnt work that way.  Efficiency is normalized with respect to area.  A forest full of 0.1% efficient plants is still 0.1% efficient.

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10675790 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Your analogy, like LP's, is incredibly flawed. I can spoon-feed you the answer or you could actually think about what you wrote.


I don't have to think about what I wrote. I already have thought about the problem. Energy use efficiency is the amount of work per unit of energy consumed. In a solar cell efficiency would be size of light gathering surface compared to energy output. I totally agree that by the latter standard a photovoltaic cell is more efficient than a leaf.

I do not agree with your conclusion that this fact makes man smarter than the designer of the leaf. As I stated before you are making an erroneous assumption that the designer of the leaf was aiming for solar cell efficiency.

I would agree that using less energy for the same task is more energy efficient, but it really isn't relevant to the op. To make the plant more solar efficiency you would reduce the size of the leaves and keep the energy input constant. If you just increased the efficiency of the leaves the plant would have excess energy and would grow really big and take over the planet.

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: DieCommie]
    #10675795 -

Qubit said:
Nope, doesnt work that way.  Efficiency is normalized with respect to area.  A forest full of 0.1% efficient plants is still 0.1% efficient.


I say we take the pressure off the plants and blame the sun for shining.  :shineon:

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Silversoul]
    #10675829 -



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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10675837 -

You are neglecting all the other aspects of nature. Plants provide food and shelter for wildlife. They convert carbon dioxide to oxygen. They play a part in a symbiotic ecosystem that man could not design. They are self replicating. I am sure there is more.

You try and boil it down to some sort of human defined efficiency and declare it inferior.

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: Existence]
    #10675867 -

Seems you totally fail to understand the nature of a thread.


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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10675877 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a tree was as efficient as a solar panel it would need only 1/230 as many leaves, which would mean fewer and thinner branches and so on. Most of its energy is wasted in bulding a zillion inefficient 'solar collectors' to compensate for the poor design.


Thank you for clarifying your point -- now I see significantly more of what you were driving at, and I see how my earlier arguments did not usefully address it. I apologize.

It raises some interesting questions: since the entire structure of a plant is essentially support for a leaf array (what use is a tree's trunk but to support its branches, which support its leaves?), one has to wonder what a plant with greater photosynthetic efficiency would look like. Presumably, it would have less leaves. Having less leaves to support, it would need less branches. Having less branches, it would need less trunk. (I know I'm only talking about trees here but surely you see how my general train of thought is applicable to all plants.) So I imagine a smaller plant, with more energy available. A plant really doesn't use its energy for anything other than growth ... growth which allows it to absorb more energy, and grow more. This seems to be in contradiction with the idea that a "better" plant would be smaller. I suppose the real effect of all this would be reduced generational time: plants which grow faster and seed sooner.

So, I've tried to think this out, and where I've ended up is at an impasse. Better photosynthesis would support faster plant growth, which would benefit the plants only if their environment could support such growth. That would require more plants being eaten or otherwise destroyed to make room for newer generations. Effectively, I'm not sure a damn thing would change. More animals would eat more plants, assuming that the soil could support said plants and that the animals weren't crowding each other out. A hallmark of life is that it tends to fill its environment to capacity, and that's already happening. Is there "room" for better plants? I don't know. I honestly don't have any conclusions about whether or not better photosynthesis would or could benefit plants. It could certainly benefit humans agriculturally, but that's not much incentive for the plants. Since the only goal of life is to exist, and plants are already doing that quite well, I'm not sure that more efficiency would actually do anything at all. If plants produced a product, say, if there was a species of plant trying to build a moon-rocket, then they'd want all the energy they could get, but they're not. They just live to live, and their current design is clearly very well suited for that purpose.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: DieCommie]
    #10675882 -

Qubit said:
Nope, doesnt work that way.  Efficiency is normalized with respect to area.  A forest full of 0.1% efficient plants is still 0.1% efficient.


Are you still talking about solar efficiency?  That is so missing the big picture.  I'm talking about how trees and other plants create ecosystems for other life to flourish.  It's pretty asinine to focus on a single entity while ignoring its ecological context.


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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10675898 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a tree was as efficient as a solar panel it would need only 1/230 as many leaves, which would mean fewer and thinner branches and so on. Most of its energy is wasted in bulding a zillion inefficient 'solar collectors' to compensate for the poor design.


Quote:
In botany, a leaf is an above-ground plant organ specialized for photosynthesis. For this purpose, a leaf is typically flat (laminar) and thin, to expose the cells containing chloroplast to light over a broad area, and to allow light to penetrate fully into the tissues. Leaves are also the sites in most plants where transpiration and guttation take place. Leaves can store food and water, and are modified in some plants for other purposes.


Leaves are not merely solar collectors.

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10675905 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a tree was as efficient as a solar panel it would need only 1/230 as many leaves, which would mean fewer and thinner branches and so on.


We've already got this.  It's called grass.  Thank you, oh wise one, Our God! :heart:

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Re: Plant evolution and God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10675919 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Seems you totally fail to understand the nature of a thread.


More accurately you cherry pick your observations and draw incorrect conclusions. I am not devoting my full attention to this. I will drop out because the whole premise is idiotic and I have a test to study for.

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