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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry!
    #10314589 -

(No source but my memory)

Years ago, some programmers did an experiment with a PAL (Programmable Logic Array - A PAL is a board with numerous logic gates that can be arranged in a zillion ways.) in a computer. I forget the specific goal, but the methodology was reasonably simple:

1. Apply a fixed series of inputs wherein the desired results are known.

2. Randomize the PAL.

3. Meausure the accuracy of the outputs. (Naturally they will be way off initially).

4. Create 16 copies of the configuration.

5. Randomly select one (or some small number) of gates to be randomly changed (mutation).

6. Measure the results of all 16 and keep the best (even if the original was better!)

7. Repeat steps 4 through 6 until no more improvement is shown after X number of iterations.

After some experimentation, the programmers got the result that they were looking for. :cheer:

Then they made copies of the PAL and stuck them in another computer and the board failed to work. Now mind you this copy was digital, meaning it should be virtually identical to the original. They stuck the copy in the original computer and it failed to work. They checked all of the connections and the impute voltages and everything looked fine.

I will leave the answer of the puzzle until later in case sharp minds want to attempt to figure this one out. I will answer basic questions as best I understand them.

The implications of the answer and the genetic methodology are most interesting to the main topic being discussed of late.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (05/18/09 12:36 PM)

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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10314652 -

So I'm a little confused, was the copy really a 1:1 copy then?

Quote:
Now mind you this copy was digital, meaning it should be virtually identical to the original.



What would an analog copy be? I'm assuming this is a physical board. I've never heard of a 'analog' or 'digital' copy talking about material objects, in the real world a copy is a copy. Or is this a virtual PC or something?

Quote:
They checked all of the connections and the impute voltages and everything looked fine.



Is this to imply that everything was not fine and it was a fault on the observer? I mean, I'm not sure what a PAL is so maybe there's not, but I assume there's more circuitry than just gates and traces right? Other components could have problems.

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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: krypto2000]
    #10314717 -

Standard diagnostics on both boards passed.


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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10315037 -

That still doesn't say anything, 'standard diagnostics' can be anything.

Can you answer what you mean by a digital copy?

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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10316009 -

Explanation of a soul model? But why did the board fail to work exactly ?
The information matters more than the matter processing it ?


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10316390 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
(No source but my memory)

Years ago, some programmers did an experiment with a PAL (Programmable Logic Array - A PAL is a board with numerous logic gates that can be arranged in a zillion ways.) in a computer. I forget the specific goal, but the methodology was reasonably simple:

1. Apply a fixed series of imputs wherein the desired results are known.

2. Randomize the PAL.

3. Meausure the accuracy of the outputs. (Naturally they will be way off initially).

4. Create 16 copies of the configuration.

5. Randomly select one (or some small number) of gates to be randomly changed (mutation).

6. Measure the results of all 16 and keep the best (even if the original was better!)

7. Repeat steps 4 through 6 until no more improvement is shown after X number of iterations.

After some experimentation, the programmers got the result that they were looking for. :cheer:

Then they made copies of the PAL and stuck them in another computer and the board failed to work. Now mind you this copy was digital, meaning it should be virtually identical to the original. They stuck the copy in the original computer and it failed to work. They checked all of the connections and the impute voltages and everything looked fine.

I will leave the answer of the puzzle until later in case sharp minds want to attempt to figure this one out. I will answer basic questions as best I understand them.

The implications of the answer and the genetic methodology are most interesting to the main topic being discussed of late.



Hey that's pretty fucking cool!

One computer had a soul and the other one didn't?

I'm guessing here.  My mind isn't as sharp without my morning rolled oats.


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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10317466 -

What's a soul?

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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10353585 -

OK, here is the punch line though those not familiar with digital circuitry might not get the implications.

The PAL board 'figured out' that if he turned on a huge number of gates at the same time it would draw enough current to lower the voltage for other gates to switch without the 'proper' input.

In other words, the 'evolved' PAL figured out how to use the specific combination or signatures of board and power supply (even though both were in spec) to pull an end-around on the experimenters exhibiting an extremely 'intelligent' solution that went far outside the parameters.

The experimenters pulled their collective hair out trying to figure what was happening. Anyone presented with this problem that did not know the history of the genetic program would likely have NEVER figured it out as there was no known way to back-engineer this.

Do you see where I am going?


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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10353630 -

:sad: im lost, i have absolutely no background in this.

could anyone explain this in layman's terms?


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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: learningtofly]
    #10353698 -

I assume this is leading towards self awareness of a digital entity?


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With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes

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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: Rocker232]
    #10353725 -

Dunno about awareness, but it looks like an intelligent design in that the board did something that no engineer even remotely expected and went outside the parameters of the experiment.


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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10353738 -

ARE YOU PERHAPS ALLUDING TO THE INTELLIGENT DESIGN/DARWIN THREAD?!


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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: learningtofly]
    #10354000 -

I'm just going to throw shit against the wall and hope that it sticks, but...

Perhaps that it created a quantum tunnel, which would be the equivalent to burning a CD on a much larger scale.

This quantum tunnel is an etching, and equivalent to a lesson the entire universe and all its dimensions has learned.

Since the matter in its alternate dimensions don't already know how to react without the event and the calculations occurring in its own place previously, there could be no way for it to work.

I'm talking out of my ass right now.

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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10354249 -

Is it something about the process leading up to the final product being what's actually important, not the final product itself?


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: elbisivni]
    #10356906 -

Sorry Orgone but you must have left out information.

Unless, they failed to do a diagnostic test on the original module, because the successful PAL might have actually been functioning under improper conditions.

But if you have a PAL, that is known, Ie. you know what the logic gates involved are, then you will get the same solution every time you put the same input in (unless, by definition, the logic gates are faulty). Similarly, if you replace any part of the PAL with a working part of the same type, the PAL will continue to function the same (unless, again, there is a fault in the system). If you replace the whole PAL then the whole new PAL will do exactly the same thing, unless there is a malfunction.

So the only way that the duplicate PAL might not work is if it in fact is not a duplicate PAL. Maybe they thought it was a duplicate because they were only considering the aspects that they thought were important... but they were simply wrong.


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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10356939 -

The two PALs were digitally identical, but one pulled more current than the other under a specific circumstance and temporarily 'tricked' the power supply. Understanding the specific mechanics is not germane to the discussion.

What IS important is that the board and 'genetic' program found a completely novel solution that never occured to anyone involved and shocked them with its 'cleverness'.

This in some way parallels biological evolution.


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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10358340 -

When you say the PAL was randomized, you mean the inputs were randomized?

Does this mean the state of the PAL board during rest was physically different than prior to "figuring out" how to open other gates?

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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: Epigallo]
    #10358369 -

Quote:
1. Apply a fixed series of inputs wherein the desired results are known.





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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10362280 -

I think the fact that the scientists did not expect this to happen... is merely bad science. Sorry I just cant see the significance of this other than in reminding scientists not to be so sloppy. If the system was controlled scientifically, then the voltage errors would not occur. The fact that they did occur simply tells the scientists that they werent being very scientific and that they need to take into account factors that they previously neglected.


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Re: Genetic Programming experiment gone horribly awry! [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10363454 -

The scientific approach would be an attempt to replicate this PAL evolution.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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