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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Mycelio]
    #9681204 -

that's what i;ve been saying.


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Mycelio]
    #9682365 -

I knwo there is no mention of this in mills work but from what I've been studyign here and of morels in general I'm getting the idea that the sclerotia is formed in the winter.  Anyone thought of adding a freezing cycle to their process?  Michigan can get pretty damn cold and if the mycelium/sclerotia can form at that temperature I'd say it stands a pretty good chance against potential contaminates which will have a harder time forming at that temperature.


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: fltdriver82]
    #9682584 -

fltdriver82,

Your plan sounds ideal.
But try to do your experiment in a tub or tray that you can see progress going on in, much like the mason jars.
To keep light from affecting growth cover the clear plastic tub or tray with something like christmas wrapping paper or brown bag.
This is just to keep the growth from being affected in case it is light-sensitive.
You won't want to dig out your results if there hasn't been any yet. You'll want to see them if there are any. So the tray/tub should be clear plastic if you can get one. I'm sure some plant and gardening stores have something like this.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (01/26/09 01:40 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9682696 -

Chakravanti,

I thought that too. But it would have to be a different type of sclerotia than the micro-sclerotia that develop in jars.
I believe those micro-sclerotia develop immediately in the spring, also meaning that spores germinate immediately even when
the morel fruitbodies are still up in the spring.

I think that a sclerotium would be the best way to survive the dry periods during the summer as well too.
Then in the fall, moisture is abundant again and the coalesced mass grows even more.
The winter isn't always cold, there are those brief warm-ups and due to that snow melts completely and then it goes back to being cold.
Snow melting isn't a factor that triggers morels. I've seen some literature about someplace in Alabama and Terry Farms simulating a snow
melt and it's bs. Snow melt doesn't trigger morels.

Warmer weather and warm rainfall triggers morels.



This is a graph of March 31st - April 30th 2008
It shows the High and Low temperatures.
the horizontal lines are 50°F, 64.4°F and 71.6°F
The dark blue line is April 16th, and that was the day I found black morels; instead of the usual yellow morels, for the first time.
You will see there was a cold snap right before I discovered them. Yet you will also see there was a warm up above 70 degrees for at least
5 days.
The heights of the black morels were about 1.5 - 2 inches or a little more.

Yellow morels showed up at the end of April.

Edited by AcidHorse (01/26/09 03:19 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #9683485 -

yo Acidhorse, you got any pics of sclerotia you've grown?  I'd like to know who on the shroomery has grown the biggest ones and how they did it.  Do you think you could theoretically get small morels from small sclerotia if you figured out how to trigger fruiting?  I've seen The_Jackal's sclerotia, they seemed pretty good sized, but not as big as the ones in the Mills video. Just what size are we shooting for?


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9683640 -

In my signature picture at the bottom and int the bottom row of images is a sclerotium of M. (atro)tomentosa the alpine morel.

This is a solid mass that is half an inch in diameter. BTW I haven't checked on that in over a while.
I need to see what it looks like now.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9684697 -

has anyone noticed that in the mills video he has no place for gas exchange on those little jars?  wtf...my logic tells me this wouldn't work, is it possible that it would accelerate sclerotia growth as the mycelium runs out of oxygen?  I know very little about mycology obviously.  Does the mycelium continue respiration as sclerotia form?


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Edited by faffle (01/26/09 07:29 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9685438 -

faffle said:
has anyone noticed that in the mills video he has no place for gas exchange on those little jars?  wtf...my logic tells me this wouldn't work, is it possible that it would accelerate sclerotia growth as the mycelium runs out of oxygen?  I know very little about mycology obviously.  Does the mycelium continue respiration as sclerotia form?


I don't think Mills is below misrepresenting his teks on screen that the TV producers wouldn't catch the value of to throw off potential Morel Cultivators watching.  It's clear that he did  it in the patent.  On the other hand, just about every detail is worth trying.  That standard mycelium cult teks don't work so some strange thing must occur.  If it sounds retarded or just wrong...it just might work.  I'm very interested in this.  I don't have lab viability set up yet but I'm working on converting a portion of my basement to Mycology and this summer I will certainly be getting active with experiments in this thread.  I fuckin' love Morels.


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #9685725 -

Has anyone tried testing Soil Electrical Conductivity (EC) of the soil samples where the morels grow? That could have something to do with it. One of the books I read, had an illistration of the sclerotia forming through aluminum foil. Just a thought.


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.6th and 7th sense theory
.Now is forever. .ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞTheﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞUnseenﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ is seenﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ by the blindﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ eye.ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ.When the inevitable time comes, go with your head held high,without regret or remorse, in your subconscious mind.
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9687162 -

Quote:
Factors Affecting Translocation and Sclerotial Formation in Morchella esculenta

Rachel Amir, Dan Levanon, Yitzhak Hadar and Ilan Chet

Migal—Galilee Technological Center, Kiryat Shmona 10200, Israel; Institute of Soils and Water, Volcani Center, Bet Dagan, Israel; and Otto Warburg Center for Agricultural Biotechnology, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot 76100, Israel

Available online 7 May 2002.

Abstract

Amir, R., Levanon, D., Hadar, Y., and Chet, I. 1995. Factors affecting translocation and sclerotial formation in Morchella esculenta. Experimental Mycology 19, 61-70. Morchella esculenta was grown on square split plates, forming sclerotia on one side and mycelium on the other. After the fungus ceased to colonize and before sclerotial initials appeared, [14C]3-O-methyl glucose was added to the edge of the plate on the mycelial side. The effect of various activities in the mycelium (source) and sclerotia (sink) on sclerotial formation and translocation were examined using inhibitors and water potential changes of the media. Sodium azide or cycloheximide applied separately to both sides inhibited both sclerotial formation and translocation, showing that processes in the source and sink depend on metabolic activities as well as protein synthesis. The use of nikkomycin inhibited sclerotial formation, without affecting translocation to the sclerotia. Since the hyphal tips swelled and burst, the translocated compounds were lost to the media. In a strain defective in sclerotial formation, used as a control, no translocation took place, showing that there is a connection between sclerotial formation and translocation. Reversal of the water potential gradient between the two media (lower on the mycelial side), reduced the formation of sclerotia and translocation to them. Translocation to Morchella sclerotia takes place via turgor driven mass flow, but is nevertheless affected by activities in both the source and the sink.



This article indicates that if the water potential of the substrate in the nutrient rich layer is greater than the water potential in the nutrient poor layer, sclerotial formation is inhibited.  In other words, more dissolved solutes in the NP layer and less in the NR layer is good. I would consider using compost in the NP layer.  Although it is high in 'plant nutrients', it is low in nutrients available to fungi.  The higher level of salts as compared to the grain layer would theoretically encourage sclerotial growth.  Just like in nature, if the mycelium is feeding on wet wood, and forming sclerotia in the soil, the soil has higher salt content, and thus, a higher EC and lower water potential. There is another abstract i found that used different methods, and says the same thing.  I can post them if you'd like.


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Edited by faffle (01/27/09 07:52 AM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9691836 -

faffle said:
has anyone noticed that in the mills video he has no place for gas exchange on those little jars?  wtf...my logic tells me this wouldn't work, is it possible that it would accelerate sclerotia growth as the mycelium runs out of oxygen?  I know very little about mycology obviously.  Does the mycelium continue respiration as sclerotia form?


I think those lid tops are micro-filters they look too white to be metal. And in the patent he mentions a filter-disc.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9694883 -

Has anyone seen or tried these methods?

http://www.thefarm.org/mushroom/morel.html

Supposedly this is Gary Mill's secret method.  most of the pix seem to be straight out of the special.


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Edited by Chakravanti (01/28/09 03:43 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9695524 -

lol yeah I think if it worked, whoever posted that would have their own pics.  I got my Morchella elata syringe today, probly transfer it to agar on sunday and get started right away.  Also got a reishi slant.  Very exciting! :cool:


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9696751 -

I did some looking and found out that "Nitrifying Bacteria" may be the culprit. Trees and plants rely on nitrifying bacteria for nitrates, nitrites, nitrogen. I found that nitrifying bacteria go dormant or die below 50°F. I found they grow best at 64.4°F - 86°F ( 18°C - 30°C ).

If morels need nitrifying bacteria to be present for proper development and such;
then when we sterilize the jars and substrates, they are killed off completely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria

The type of nitrogen compounds and enzymes they produce are like nothing I've ever heard of tried as a supplement for morels.

It makes me wonder if those dying elms' tree roots are decomposing and producing more ammonia for the bacteria. Or any tree for that matter.

"Nitrifying bacteria are found in soil on the roots of plants."

http://www.wsd1.org/kelvin/Departments/science/index/Teacher%20Course%20Pages/Burdeniuk/S2%20Ecology.pdf

http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.1672/07-147.1 <--- another interesting document

"Total DIN mineralized in the incubated soils collected in year 5 was also influenced by treatments. Lack of net N mineralization response to variations in aboveground litter suggests that microbial immobilization exerts a strong control over soil N dynamics. Although net N mineralization rates were lower in soils from root-excluded plots, nitrification rates were much higher. Incubated soils from the Pennsylvania site showed similar results. These findings suggest that the absence of roots and mycorrhizal hyphae favor nitrifying bacteria."

http://harvardforest.fas.harvard.edu/data/p00/hf007/hf007.html

so maybe a certain nitrogen compound may play a factor. Something the bacteria give off.

Volk and others have reported their findings with nitrates on morels and showed results that were impressive.

http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/biology/issues/biy-00-24-4/biy-24-4-10-9905-3.pdf

"In many states during the winter the water temperature drops below 50° which kills all the bacteria (good and bad)"

http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/Seasonal/awaken.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrifying_bacteria

"This is the main reason why denitrification mostly occurs in the deep substrata of the soil, or in areas of stagnant water."

"This process of denitrification lowers the fertility of the soil and thus is less common in areas where the land is rather well-cultivated. But this loss of nitrogen to the atmosphere can eventually be regained via introduced food and water, as part of the nitrogen cycle. Some nitrogen may also be fixated by species of nitrifying bacteria and the cyanobacteria."

"Denitrifying bacteria themselves include several species of pseudomonas, alkaligenes and bacillus. By their activity the losses of nitrogen into the atmosphere is roughly balanced by that which is released into the soil by nitrifying bacteria, forming the relatively reliable cycle."

OR maybe a denitrifying bacteria is the culprit

Various anaerobic bacteria are commonly found in stagnant water.

Denitrifying bacteria
Purple bacteria (both sulfur and non-sulfur)
Leptospira

Trapped water stagnation. The water may be trapped in human artifacts (discarded cans, plant pots, tires, dug-outs, roofs, etc.), as well as in natural containers, such as hollow tree trunks, leaf sheaths, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagnant_water

Miscellanea
Pools of stagnant water have historically been used in the processing of hemp and some other fiber crops, as well as of linden bark used for making bast shoes. Several weeks of soaking makes bast fibers easily separable due to bacterial and fermentative processes known as retting.


Morels and bacteria
The fungi A. bisporus and Glomus versiforme have had their relationship to associated bacteria
scrutinised. In the absence of the soil bacteria Pseudomonas putida basidiocarp initiation of the edible
mushroom A. bisporus has been found to be delayed by one to two weeks with less initials forming
(Rainey et al., 1990). Where bacteria were allowed to grow with germinating spores of G. versiforme
more spores were found to germinate (Mayo et al., 1986). Morchella have been found in the root zone
of a plant with Bacillus spp. (Buscot, 1992) and within the fungal cells of a Hartig net with an
undetermined endobacteria (Buscot, 1994). No other information is available on the relationship
between bacteria and Morchella.
A selection of eight bacteria, found growing in association with Tasmanian Morchella, have been
characterised. Two types of sclerotia were formed by Morchella in association with bacteria, ST1 and
ST2. ST1 occurred on the surface of the agar and tended to aggregate near the inoculum which is
different to Buscot’s description of early encrusting sclerotia that form at the margin. The later
forming ST2 were dispersed across the agar surface with sclerotia forming in, on or above agar
dependent on the morel isolate grown. This pattern of sclerotia formation is similar to Buscot’s late
isolated sclerotia but whether late isolated sclerotia form in, on or above medium is not known.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (01/29/09 03:05 AM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9701093 -

how's it going guys i'm glad to see more people joining in....... Heres the update on my jars.the sterilized soil is doing very little, but the unsterilized soil has 2-3 sclerotia forming on the margin of the oatmeal and soil.the largest is a 11/2 long and almost 3/4 in in height! more are also forming but none the size of the first. They are starting to mature as they are turning orange.i just started 2 jars with more unsterilized soil and are incubating as we speak! fuck i needa camera i'm heading to town this weekend so pics to com soon!


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #9701395 -

Could de/nitrifying bactira be cultured separately and added after sterilizaiton?  I'm still reading through that and trying to make heads or tails of which should be used.


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This is a test. Just keep on going. Don't worry. We'll get it right. We've done this before.

Edited by Chakravanti (01/29/09 06:16 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9701411 -

to much hasle, just pasurize the soil. i didn't even do that and i'm getting huge sclerotia but i wouldn't recomend it. just pasturize.


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #9701549 -

metalhead said:
to much hasle, just pasurize the soil. i didn't even do that and i'm getting huge sclerotia but i wouldn't recomend it. just pasturize.


You're getting huge sclerotia growth but wouldn't recommend it?  If what you did works then you might be on to something.  Once I get set up there's nothing I won't try to get morels growing.  I <3 morels!


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9701621 -

it's risky but if it collonizes in time like it did in mine it should be fine the pasurization just lessens the risky contams. i can't wait to get these into trays!


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #9701643 -

i just watched the pbs video on mills technique and it's obvious they're layering every thing. The sclerotia he pulled out looked a little immature(mabe it's just me) could there be a reason for this? and one frame looks like the sclerotia are barely burried? It shows an assembly line deal they have and the soil they're using looks really black and rich. BUt they need a lack of nutes for good sclerotia formation. Could the bacteria present kind of just zero out this condition needed in sterile situations?


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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