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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Paresthesia] * 1
    #9485579 -

Paresthesia said:
Holy shit this thread is going craaaazy.

Why grow plants in the morel trays?  For root inhabiting bacteria?    Like the actinomycetes I was just discussing?

Hello!  Is this thing on?! :grin:


actinomycetes sounds like a good group but how many other types of things are there?


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse] * 1
    #9485611 -

this thread is great. i have the morchella elata culture from sporeworks. I'd like to jump in on this but in south florida my temps just arent right.

this idea about the bacteria is great. AcidHorse as soon as i saw those little plants the first thing that came to mind was a clover of some kind. which got me thinking about the fact that some clovers make tuberous roots. I dont expect they would plant seeds into their trays. it would make more sense to use the tubers of a plant as a way of introducing a bacteria. I think maybe the little plants are growing up from burried roots. Not necessarily clovers but something like that. maybe even an arachis species.

:shrug::smile: lets keep the ideas coming. we'll figure it out.


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Paresthesia] * 1
    #9485654 -

Quote:
Bacterial communities from the rhizosphere of cucumber were characterized with respect to growth rates and carbon source utilization, in order to develop a selection strategy for biocontrol agents against Pythium aphanidermatum. Rhizosphere samples were collected from different root regions (root tips, the root base, and the intermediate region where lateral roots emerge) and developmental stages (the seedling, vegetative, and generative stage) from plants cultivated on reused rockwool. By colony counts on 1/10 strength TSA on subsequent days after plating, percentages of fast- and slow-growing isolates (i.e., forming visible colonies within 2 days, or after 3 or more days, respectively) were determined for each rhizosphere sample. At all plant developmental stages, root tips had the highest percentages of fast growing isolates, and root bases the lowest. During plant growth, the relative amounts of slowly growing bacteria increased. Community-level carbon source utilization was determined for the different rhizosphere samples with Biolog GN plates. Principal component analysis showed that rhizosphere samples from different developmental stages and root locations had distinct carbon source utilization patterns. Communities from root tips of seedlings showed the highest utilization of several monosaccharides. Communities from tips and intermediate regions of plants in the vegetative stage utilized relatively many amino acids and several organic acids, and in the generative stage, more di- and polysaccharides were used. Root base samples scored low with respect to carbon source utilization, except for some disaccharides. From the different rhizosphere samples, 826 bacteria, randomly collected from 1/10 strength TSA plates, were screened on the utilization of 9 carbon sources. The 9 selected carbon sources were chosen because they are reported to occur in the rhizosphere, to be used by the zoospores of Pythium in the infection process, or appeared to be discriminant in the analysis of community-level carbon source utilization performed in this study. It appeared that monosaccharides (glucose and fucose), amino acids (alanine and asparagine), and organic acids (galacturonic, succinic, and linoleic acid) were used for growth mainly by bacteria from the root tips, and to a lesser extent from the intermediate region, of young plants. Disaccharides were predominantly utilized by isolates from plants in the vegetative stage. Overall, the results indicated that growth rates and carbon source utilization reflect the adaptation of bacteria to the rhizosphere environment. The possibility of using these characteristics to screen for rhizosphere competent biocontrol agents that compete for substrates with P. aphanidermatum is discussed.


http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13441384

A sugar I have never came across or used ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucose


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (12/23/08 08:46 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: waixingren] * 1
    #9485676 -

waixingren said:
this thread is great. i have the morchella elata culture from sporeworks. I'd like to jump in on this but in south florida my temps just arent right.

this idea about the bacteria is great. AcidHorse as soon as i saw those little plants the first thing that came to mind was a clover of some kind. which got me thinking about the fact that some clovers make tuberous roots. I dont expect they would plant seeds into their trays. it would make more sense to use the tubers of a plant as a way of introducing a bacteria. I think maybe the little plants are growing up from burried roots. Not necessarily clovers but something like that. maybe even an arachis species.

:shrug::smile: lets keep the ideas coming. we'll figure it out.


Those plants could even be Ground Ivy too.



Plus that could even be new growth after a freezing situation.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (12/23/08 09:41 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse] * 1
    #9485753 -

I mean I am beyond amatuer but from what I have researched they grow near/after forest fires. Maybe they need lots of C02 to fruit?

Has anyone ever tried incorporating ash in their substrate or as a casing? I have a strange feeling that might help lots.

I've found some near limestone also(N Ohio). Dunno what that has to aid but I figure anyone's guess is a good one with this type of situation.

Edited by smaerd (12/23/08 08:58 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: smaerd] * 1
    #9485963 -

Hmmm yeah yet maybe all the fire does is no different than the pasteurization. Killing off the bad organisms yet allowing the good to survive.

Also during those fires in pine forests, there's a lot of tree sap dripping to the ground as the trees burn.

Yet once again we generalize things.

I'm dealing with the yellows out on the east coast temperate section.

As for limestone, may have something to do with pH.





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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (12/23/08 09:37 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: smaerd] * 1
    #9486008 -

Legumes don't grow from tubers!  Once you remove the roots, the plants die.  The nodules that form on roots are actually colonies of nitrogen fixing bacteria.  They swell up with huge colonies of the things.  Those sprouts would have to be from seeds planted in the substrate.

Fungi Perfecti sells a mycorrhizal inoculant that contains both endo and ectomycorrhizal spores.  It also contains a trichoderma species and a shitload of bacterial endospores.  Here's the list from their site:

Quote:
Bacillus subtillus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus azotoformans, Bacillus megaterium, Bacillus coagulans, Bacillus pumlis, Bacillus thuringiensis, Bacillus stearothermiphilis, Paenibacillus polymyxa, Paenibacillus durum, Paenibacillus florescence, Paenibacillus gordonae, Azotobacter polymyxa, Azotobacter chroococcum, Sacchromyces cervisiae, Streptomyces griseues, Streptomyces lydicus, Pseudomonas aureofaceans, Deinococcus erythromyxa


Some of these colonize legume roots and fix nitrogen.  They also fight fungal plant pathogens by forcing out competitors.  They're probably also involved in facilitating mycorrhizal relationships with plants.

Okay, this seems a lot simpler to me than the presence of bacteria.  What if Mills just went around plucking seedlings out of trays before the pictures were taken?  Or maybe the act of removing the seedlings triggers fruiting, because the morels detect the death of the host plant?  I think I need to actually see this show. :smile:


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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead] * 1
    #9486041 -

metalhead said:
i found somthing while looking through old threads about being able to buy the rights to use a chinese patent to cult morels any one know about this? the thread was Cultivated morels (outdoors only so far).


BTW before I forget, http://www.chinavivers.com/html/200854_165241_pInP.html

But one of those photos at the top of the page looks like it was doctored in Photoshop.
The lighting on the fruitbodies isn't right on some.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Paresthesia] * 1
    #9486096 -

However Paresthesia Dutchman's Breeches and SquirrelCorn have a type of tuberlike structure that will regrow even if you break pieces off of its tubers, kind of like potatoes.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Paresthesia] * 1
    #9486294 -

Paresthesia said:
Okay, this seems a lot simpler to me than the presence of bacteria.  What if Mills just went around plucking seedlings out of trays before the pictures were taken?  Or maybe the act of removing the seedlings triggers fruiting, because the morels detect the death of the host plant?  I think I need to actually see this show. :smile:


Yet what about those people who planted or poured morel wash water with spores around trees in their yards, and then nothing happened especially when the soil was prepared right and was ideal? A specific woodland occurring bacteria may be needed.

But I wonder if you could use potato slices with the potato eyes. Plus the potato is soft and tender.



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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (12/23/08 10:33 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse] * 1
    #9486301 -

AcidHorse said:
However Paresthesia Dutchman's Breeches and SquirrelCorn have a type of tuberlike structure that will regrow even if you break pieces off of its tubers, kind of like potatoes.


Yes!  They are not legumes  (Fabaceae family).  These plants probably don't fix atmospheric nitrogen in the soil.  I guess I was stuck on the whole 'clover' thing.  It would make sense to me that they would use a plant that tends to collect a lot of those helper type bacteria, if they're involved in morel fruiting.  Then again, the bacteria don't need a host plant to survive--actinomycetes are selected for when casing is pasteurized for commercial agaricus cultivation.  There are enough of them living in the casing to stimulate fruiting.

If it's the actual death of the host plant that's involved, I had the idea of planting horseradish or flower bulbs in an outdoor morel bed.  The 'hosts' die every season when the horseradish is harvested or the bulbs come back up in late spring.

I'm starting up a shitload of vegetable seedlings next month for planting in the spring, so I'll be up to my ears in garden stuff anyways.  I'm going to try seeding a tray or two with different types of plants.


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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Paresthesia] * 1
    #9486321 -

You should definitely pasteurize your substrate before planting any plants into it.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse] * 1
    #9486390 -

AcidHorse said:
You should definitely pasteurize your substrate before planting any plants into it.


Yes, of course!

Also, giving seeds an overnight soak in a solution containing hydrogen peroxide seems to speed up germination.  (Seeds need oxygen to germinate!)  Doing that would kill off any spores or bacteria on the seeds themselves.  Orchid growers also use it to clean seed pods before they put orchid seeds on agar.

(Interesting side note here.  Orchids require mycorrhizae to germinate, since the seeds have no endosperm.  This is why orchid growers germinate seeds on agar.  Until they start producing chlorophyll, orchids are a fungal pathogen!  Coral root orchids make no chlorophyll at all, so they're parasitic to fungi!)

I took a closer look at those photos.  They look to be some kind of bean vine, but it's hard to tell.  Those look like pea leaves to me.


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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Paresthesia] * 1
    #9486434 -

Cut seed potatoes so that one or two eyes are on the surface of the potato, leaving some of the meat of the potato for initial energy for the plant. Plant with the eyes facing upward about 5 inches deep and 12-14 inches apart. Potatoes are typically planted 2 weeks or so before the last killing frost of the spring.

Generally store-bought potatoes have been sprayed with a chemical that inhibits sprouting. So they do not make good seed potatoes. Yet they can produce a crop. For best results obtain your favorite variety from a seed store.

Most soils will grow potatoes, but they prefer moist, acidic soil (pH slightly less than 6). If you find your soil is not acidic enough try adding pine needles into the mix. But don't go overboard, because very acidic soil makes for small potatoes.

To fertilize soil before planting, use well-composted manure. Fresh manure will burn the tubers.

5-8 pounds of potato seeds should be sufficient to plant a 100 foot row. Potatoes are perenial. Left in the ground they will come up year after year. Nevertheless, they are usually treated as an anual, as the edible part of the plant is the root and the plant must be dug up to obtain it.

As the potatoes grow keep weeds to a minimum, but do not hoe too deeply near the plants as the roots and tubers are relatively shallow. Remove and destroy insects as soon as they appear. Some typical pests include: the Colorado potato beetle, red slugs and blister beetles. Where crops are small, hand picking the pests is effective and safe. However, where this is not practical, sprays may be used - consult your local authority as to what chemicals are legal and effective. Where air is particularly moist and cool, early blight can kill the vines.

Blight appears first as purple blotches on the leave. The blotches turn brown and rot. This disease can be prevented by spraying chlorothalonil or mancozeb on a weekly basis from the time the plants are six inches high.

Scab is another disease that attacks potato plants. It is usually dealt with by planting resistant varieties (e.g. Norchip, Norland and Superior) and careful treatment of the soil. Do not put lime in soil before planting potatoes. Soil should be kept moist, but well-drained.

Harvest potatoes when most of the tops have withered. They can be left in the ground for 4-6 weeks and even longer. Be sure to store them in a dark but dry place to ensure the potatoes do not turn green. See Safety Precautions.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Paresthesia] * 1
    #9486601 -

But you know this still doesn't explain the growing of sclerotia in jars and those are huge ones I've seen in the PBS show.
and the jar is nearly filled, so there is no room for plant growth given limited light plus the fact the sclerotia need darkness.
So it most likely is a bacteria.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse] * 1
    #9487648 -

I watched a video clip of the Scientific American Frontiers show last night.  Very interesting...  Link to the video here.

I don't think the plant association has much to do with sclerotia formation.  I think it has to do with fruiting the morels themselves.  One of the pages posted mentions planting tree seedlings in morel beds, then killing them at some point to trigger fruiting.


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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot

Edited by Paresthesia (12/24/08 05:48 AM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse] * 1
    #9487649 -

just to chime in..the gtr710 report listed morels as being mycorhyzal with  cane producing plants such as multiflora rose and raspberries...which i have observed in nature, as well as grasses and ferns.

ive also noticed that they like to grow in the same general area as mayapple...but im not sure if this is more a microclimate coincindence or an actual mycorhyzal relationship being demonstrated.


thanks to all who are contributing to this thread...lotta good posts here.


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:greys:

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: smaerd] * 1
    #9487670 -

smaerd said:
I mean I am beyond amatuer but from what I have researched they grow near/after forest fires. Maybe they need lots of C02 to fruit?

Has anyone ever tried incorporating ash in their substrate or as a casing? I have a strange feeling that might help lots.

I've found some near limestone also(N Ohio). Dunno what that has to aid but I figure anyone's guess is a good one with this type of situation.


Yes indeed!  People have used charcoal and cigarette ashes, among other things.  The normal technique for outdoor growing involves using charred wood in the substrate.  The general idea here is to trigger a fruiting by making the morel patch think there's been a fire.
As far as lime goes, that's a standard addition to morel beds as well.  It really depends on where the morel culture is from.  I know that in my native Texas, morels are found in limestone soils in the central hills, and in acidic soils in the pine forest regions.


--------------------
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Paresthesia] * 1
    #9488639 -

alright say we get some really nice sized sclerotia in our jars(what size are looking for?)than what? and second if we get soil where we find them in the spring do you replace the wood mulch layer with it?


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead] * 1
    #9489059 -

and with the jars how do you get the sclerotia out and what do you do with the rest of the jars contents


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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