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Offlineucsdmolpath
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morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum?
    #2290957 - 02/01/04 02:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

hi all :smile:

i've never tried growing morels or chanterelles, but a friend of mine has requested that i do, since she loves to cook them...in anycase, i have a few extra maitake and hericum wooden spawn plugs that i could trade for morel and chanterelle spawn plugs or agar wedges....also any info on their culture would be most appreciated! 

=^_^= molpath


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ucsdmolpath]
    #2291105 - 02/01/04 04:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

When you have grown your first chanterelles please post some the tek and some pics here  :rolleyes:

No, seriously - you should do a search on that kind of topics before you post them here.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ucsdmolpath]
    #2291378 - 02/01/04 10:39 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

how experienced are you btw?
Chanterelles are.. impossible ..to grow indoors right now
morels are extreeeemely finicky, and are expensive to produce anyway..


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Offlineucsdmolpath
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ]
    #2292005 - 02/01/04 05:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

well, i knew morels were difficult to grow, i didn't think that they carried such a reputation...a few responses to some questions on here...

1) insofar as my experience, while i'm new to fungi cultivation, i'm a molecular biologist who deals with mammalian cells, insect and bacterial cells. considering i too have to stringently control temperature, CO2, humidity, salt and mineral molarities, serum and other facters--all in sterile conditions...so, to me, fungi are really not all that different...just a matter of finding and providing the right conditions...the basis of most experiments...

2) in any case, i posted after reading a section in stamets which states that morel mycelium colonize grain medium very fast in bottles, it's just a matter of providing the right outdoor casing which can usually work with the right balance of ash, peat moss, and some other stuff which i don't remember right now.

3) chanterelles, i've never read about and just threw them in because i had heard of them and my friend was interested....i knew that they decompose fallen leaves in their natural environment and frankly, i thought it might be cool to try growing them in a bottled media of autoclaved leaves and grain...and now i know that they are difficult to grow, kind of like how people thougth reishi were really difficult to grow so many years ago. you should also keep in mind that i never said i attempting to grow anything indoors.

truly, i did not mean to piss off or patronize anyone when writing on here, i was just politely trying to find and share information like the rest of you.


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OfflineBasidiocarp
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ucsdmolpath]
    #2292097 - 02/01/04 06:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

If you are a scientist, then you should appreciate the value of an exhaustive literature search before you undertake an experiment or project. Some things that are well-known:

Outdoor morel cultivation has a fair to good success rate. The stuff with ash that you're talking about is part of the actual substrate, not the casing. Outdoor morel patches a la Stamets are not cased per se. They also take at least a year to bear fruit, if you're lucky.

To my knowledge, only the yellow morel has been successfully cultivated indoors a la the patented procedure by Ower. I have heard of no reports of the black morel fruiting indoors. I tried the Ower procedure with the black morel and failed. Stamets has tried variations on the Ower procedure with the black Morel and failed.

Chanterelles are mycorrhizal fungi, which means that their mycelium engages in a mutualistic/symbiotic relationship with the roots of host plants/trees. There have been a few reports of controlled cultivation of chanterelles, but the one I heard about required the growing of tree saplings in pots and then encouraging a mycorrhizal chanterelle/sapling relationship. Yields were, to my understanding, poor. So, I don't think you'd have much success growing chanterelles on dead leaves. If you're looking to make chanterelle spawn to introduce into the outdoors, sawdust spawn would be far superior to grain or grain/leaves. Grain breaks down too quickly outdoors and attracts unwanted pests.

Despite your molecular biology experience, I would recommend getting your feet wet with some easier-to-grow-species. In doing so you will learn invaluable skills, tricks, and knowledge that will help you tackle more difficult species.


--------------------
"...if the mind is actually part of a continuum, a labyrinth that is connected not only to every other mind that exists or has existed, but to every atom, organism, and region in the vastness of space and time itself, the fact that it is able to occasionally make forays into the labyrinth and have transpersonal experiences no longer seems so strange."

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Offlineucsdmolpath
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: Basidiocarp]
    #2292163 - 02/01/04 07:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

thank you, dr. honeydew...

that kind of response is much more informative and productive for me than prior spats...

my point, readers may have noticed in my response to other recent replies, was that perhaps regardless of area of specialization, is that these kind of public informative forums should offer a more encouraging environment. while i may have knowledge of stringent biochemical pathways in the oncology of cancer and genomic instability which is what i research, and while i may know where to find the vast resources of specialized information on this subject, i doubt most mycologists might be so familiar. however, i would not discourage or ridicule people with limited knowledge on the subject as in previous responses. frankly, if this forum expects members to have a certain level of knowledge before joining or posting, perhaps there should be some sort of preliminary examination?

i hope that others could take dr. honeydew's response as a prime example of what a productive and informative response should be. far be it from me to offend anyone with my mycological ignorance. but are we not all ignorant beings in some regard, seeking to learn more about this world?


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Offlineesp
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ucsdmolpath]
    #2292576 - 02/01/04 10:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

If i any case, you would feel like trying to grow morel indoors, here is TEK you could give a try:
http://www.mushroompeople.com/cat2000/morel.html

According to the pics, I looks like a successfull TEK...

Good luck!


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OfflineBasidiocarp
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: esp]
    #2292694 - 02/01/04 11:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

esp said:
If i any case, you would feel like trying to grow morel indoors, here is TEK you could give a try:
http://www.mushroompeople.com/cat2000/morel.html

According to the pics, I looks like a successfull TEK...

Good luck!




Yes, this TEK is a variation on the patented procedure originally conceived of by Ower. It can work for the yellow morel, Morchella esculenta. I tried it and failed using a black morel strain Morchella augusticeps. The procedure requires lots of specific substrate materials, precise growing conditions, and is quite labor-intensive. Even if you do follow the TEK down to every detail, do not be surprised by failure: Morel strains are hypervariable with resepct to indoor fruiting ability; morel cultures senesce quickly, and will fail to produce sclerotia and mushrooms after as few as 5 - 10 petri plate subcultures; and finally the TEK/patent procedure itself has several steps where contamination and failure are possible/likely.

Morel culture is an area of ongoing research. Keep your eyes and ears tuned in...


--------------------
"...if the mind is actually part of a continuum, a labyrinth that is connected not only to every other mind that exists or has existed, but to every atom, organism, and region in the vastness of space and time itself, the fact that it is able to occasionally make forays into the labyrinth and have transpersonal experiences no longer seems so strange."

Visit the Psychonautical Society


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Offlineucsdmolpath
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: Basidiocarp]
    #2293048 - 02/02/04 02:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

thanks for the advice....appreciate it :smile:


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ucsdmolpath]
    #2293148 - 02/02/04 04:05 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

that kind of response is much more informative and productive for me than prior spats...




I think you allude to my post with your statement:
I did not want to put you off and keep you from asking questions in this forum. But it should be common practice to read the FAQ's and inform oneself roughly about a topic before posting in a forum.
If you have a look at the pinned down posts in most of the forums it just says that ( e.g: see the advanced section, or the mushroom cultivation section ). This prevents new users from asking the same questions over and over again ( and maybe boring other users ).
So, please post questions, but please just take the time and inform yourself roughly about the topic before you post it.

Hope I do not have offend you with this post ?


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ucsdmolpath]
    #2293157 - 02/02/04 04:09 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Cantharellus can be cultivated - here is the tek or better the PhD thesis :grin: :
http://www.mykopat.slu.se/mycorrhiza/kantarellfiler/texter/rtf.htm
However the culture will be hard to obtain...

The only mycorrhizal culture I have is Amanita muscaria. 3 months after cloning the mycellium covered less then 1cm2 of normal PDYA agar. :crazy:


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ucsdmolpath]
    #2295714 - 02/02/04 11:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I''ve been thinking about cloning chantrelles this summer. I don't think I would grow them on any normal media, they get their carbohydrates from host trees and i'd bet probably from mostly sugars. So I'll probably wan't a mineral rich sugar agar with some source of protein or nitrogen (maybe urea).

Once I get them growing on agar they will probably have to go onto malted grain mixed with (?) so the carbs are easier to get at for the chantrelles.

Then I'll pop them out of the wide mouth jars I grew them in and have myself chantrelle tempeh.

I don't really think its going to be this easy, but it would be nice.


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OfflineBasidiocarp
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: falcon]
    #2295785 - 02/03/04 12:15 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
I don't really think its going to be this easy, but it would be nice.




Nah, won't be that easy...  But you might want to consider using one of the minimal mediums that plant tissue culture people use...  Basically Glucose or sucrose plus N/P/K and some other trace minerals.  MS medium is a good place to start.  Do keep us informed of your progress.  :smile:


--------------------
"...if the mind is actually part of a continuum, a labyrinth that is connected not only to every other mind that exists or has existed, but to every atom, organism, and region in the vastness of space and time itself, the fact that it is able to occasionally make forays into the labyrinth and have transpersonal experiences no longer seems so strange."

Visit the Psychonautical Society


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: Basidiocarp]
    #2295870 - 02/03/04 12:49 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

OK. Minimal media sounds good. :laugh:  I wont be finding any chantrelles till June though :frown:.


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: falcon]
    #2296261 - 02/03/04 04:15 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

In the link that zeronio provided it says that they have used following agar mediums:

Quote:

1. Murashige & Skoog medium (MS) (Table 5) was supplied with antibiotics (50 ppm streptomycin and ampicillin, 5 ppm benomyl) and then sterile filtered (0.2 um Sartorius cellulose acetate filter). MS was then mixed with an autoclaved agar solution (final agar concentration 1.2%) with 0.05% activated charcoal (to adsorb toxic compounds in autoclaved agar), before addition to 9-cm petri dishes.




Quote:

2. Modified Fries medium (MFM) (Table 5) was sterile filtered and mixed with autoclaved agar without activated charcoal. As a precaution, activated charcoal was added on top of the agar surface.





It is interesting that they use activated charcoal in order to adsorb toxic compounds in autoclaved agar. But this sort of agars use a lot of different chemical compounds and I think it must be very hard to obtain them.


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ragadinks]
    #2296270 - 02/03/04 04:21 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It's possible to get the chemicals but they're very expensive and you'd need very accurate measuring equipment to prepare this media.
I bet these cantharelles Eric Danell grew cost thousands of $.

Quote:


Composition of Modified Fries Medium (MFM)
based on Straatsma & van Griensven (1986), Eriksson (1965) and Fries
(1978). Murashige & Skoog medium (MS) from Straatsma et al. (1986).
_____________________________________________________________________
MFM MS

D (+) glucose 2.20 g 0
D (-) fructose 2.00 g 0
Sucrose 0 20 g
NH4Cl 0.58 g 0
Succinic acid 0.59 g 0
Meso-inosit 10 mg 100 mg
Macrostock 1a 50 ml 0
Macrostock 1b 0 ml 100 ml
Eriksson microstock2 1 ml 1 ml
Fries vitamine stock3 5 ml 5 ml

Total volume 1000 ml pH 5.5 1000 ml pH 4.2

Composition of macrostock (g/1000 ml):
1a:
KH2PO4 4.00
MgSO4 7H2O 2.00
NaCl 0.40
CaCl2 2H2O 0.52

1b:
KH2PO4 1.7
MgSO4 7H2O 3.7
CaCl2 2H2O 4.4
NH4NO3 16.5
KNO3 19.0

2 Eriksson microstock (200 ml):

EDTA Titriplex III 1.90 g
FeSO4 7H2O 1.40 g

MnSO4 H2O 170 mg
H3BO3 63 mg
ZnSO4 7H2O 287 mg
KI 75 mg
NaMoO4 2H2O 2.50 mg
CuSO4 5H2O 0.25 mg
CoCl2 6H2O 0.25 mg

3 Fries vitaminestock (mg/250 ml):

Thiamine 5.0
Pyridoxine 5.0
Riboflavine 5.0
Biotine 1.25
Nicotinamide 5.0
P-aminobenzoic acid 5.0
Panthotenic acid 5.0





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OfflineBasidiocarp
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: zeronio]
    #2296284 - 02/03/04 04:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Prepared/dehydrated minimal media such as MS can be had from any number of biological supply houses for much cheaper than it would cost to buy all of the constituent ingredients and make it up yourself. A few liters of MS media can be less than twenty US dollars for example. Sigma chemical, Carolina Biological, and Fisher Scientific come to mind. (Sorry to international folks, these are all US firms, as I am a US person.)


--------------------
"...if the mind is actually part of a continuum, a labyrinth that is connected not only to every other mind that exists or has existed, but to every atom, organism, and region in the vastness of space and time itself, the fact that it is able to occasionally make forays into the labyrinth and have transpersonal experiences no longer seems so strange."

Visit the Psychonautical Society


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: Basidiocarp]
    #2296292 - 02/03/04 04:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

20 $ ? So there is hope :wink:

What is the difference between PDYA and MF for example. Do you think the chanterelles would not grow on PDYA prepared with active characoal and some antibiotics ?


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ragadinks]
    #2296314 - 02/03/04 04:46 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think that microelements and vitamins are crucial for success, as well as exact pH. I bet they must have done a lot of trials and failures to get the above formulas.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: morels and chanterelles to swap for maitake and hericum? [Re: ragadinks]
    #2302393 - 02/04/04 09:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm going to try it with some simple agar recipe, but the activated charcoal sounds like a must. They are just trace minerals and what looks like vitamins, there are probably other places to find these.


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