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OfflineLakotis
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Morels mycorrhizal? if so, why primarly around dead Elm/Popul
    #13198610 - 09/15/10 10:34 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

So I learned and decided to own a new word today. mycorrhizal.

Primary interest being in cultivating edibles. This word comes up alot while searching on how to grow various mushrooms.

Puffballs, Morels, Chanterelles and various others.

mycorrhiza is defined by being symbiotic or weakly pathogenic.

People say that Morels are mycorrhizal. I am not so sure.

Ive harvested wild morel close to 30 years. And by and large most of the Morels I find are closely associated with decaying/dead Elm(Esculenta). Or decaying Aspen/Popul(Elata). These trees are clearly dead. The mushrooms never extend out beyond where the Drip line would have been had the tree been alive. So I assume Morels are after the root structure.

I find that rather fresh dead to be the best harvest. Usually within 5 years of death. And I almost never find Morels under Alive trees of this type.

It doesnt seem to me to be either Symbiotic or "weakly" Pathogenic, considering these trees are dead.

So what am I missing?

Are the Morels present (just not fruiting) in Alive elm roots?

Perhaps while the tree is dead the roots are alive? I know that Popul reproduce primarily as clones/shoots. We call a grove of Aspens an "Aspen Clone" Though Ive never heard of other Morel bearing trees such as Elm/Apple reproducing like this.

or are Morels perhaps not mycorrhizal? and are actually digesting decaying ELm/popul roots?

Hope you can help me understand this.


--------------------
"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."
John Maynard Keynes



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InvisibleTangich


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Re: Morels mycorrhizal? if so, why primarly around dead Elm/Popul [Re: Lakotis]
    #13198636 - 09/15/10 10:41 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Morells are not mycorrhizal. They have some other unique requirements for growth, that's why their cultivation is difficult.


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Offlinenexus1946
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Re: Morels mycorrhizal? if so, why primarly around dead Elm/Popul [Re: Tangich]
    #13198824 - 09/15/10 11:23 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Heres some info on Morels you might be interested in.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/publications/gtr710/


--------------------
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OfflineLakotis
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Re: Morels mycorrhizal? if so, why primarly around dead Elm/Popul [Re: nexus1946]
    #13198860 - 09/15/10 11:32 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you!


--------------------
"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."
John Maynard Keynes



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OfflineAcidHorse
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Re: Morels mycorrhizal? if so, why primarly around dead Elm/Popul [Re: Lakotis]
    #13221944 - 09/20/10 09:58 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakotis said:
So I learned and decided to own a new word today. mycorrhizal.

Primary interest being in cultivating edibles. This word comes up alot while searching on how to grow various mushrooms.

Puffballs, Morels, Chanterelles and various others.

mycorrhiza is defined by being symbiotic or weakly pathogenic.

People say that Morels are mycorrhizal. I am not so sure.

Ive harvested wild morel close to 30 years. And by and large most of the Morels I find are closely associated with decaying/dead Elm(Esculenta). Or decaying Aspen/Popul(Elata). These trees are clearly dead. The mushrooms never extend out beyond where the Drip line would have been had the tree been alive. So I assume Morels are after the root structure.

I find that rather fresh dead to be the best harvest. Usually within 5 years of death. And I almost never find Morels under Alive trees of this type.

It doesnt seem to me to be either Symbiotic or "weakly" Pathogenic, considering these trees are dead.

So what am I missing?

Are the Morels present (just not fruiting) in Alive elm roots?

Perhaps while the tree is dead the roots are alive? I know that Popul reproduce primarily as clones/shoots. We call a grove of Aspens an "Aspen Clone" Though Ive never heard of other Morel bearing trees such as Elm/Apple reproducing like this.

or are Morels perhaps not mycorrhizal? and are actually digesting decaying ELm/popul roots?

Hope you can help me understand this.




Well what I have found is that its possible they have been feeding off of the tree sap exuding from the roots and when these trees
are injured, oxidative stress occurs in them as well and peroxides develop. And the fungus may be responding to this.
Another possibility is that the tree creates a situation that shields the fungus from oxidative stress due to exposure to intense lighting,
light is another thing that causes oxidative stress yet it also requires the presence of metal reactive oxygen species. The tree has no leaves
in the early spring so light is unrestricted but when they do fully leaf out the ground under them is shaded thereby reducing the possibility of continued oxidative stress. Leaf cover is usually completely gone and decomposed in the late summer and early fall before the new leaf
cover drops down on the ground and the leaf cover under sugar maples is like this, yet under other types of trees the leaves take longer
to decompose i.e. oak, hackberry. These trees rarely have morels around them.
Ash is injured by emerald ash borer, and elm is injured by dutch elm; the trees experience oxidative stress in these situations its their way to fight off infection.
The other possibility is that the fungus enjoys the taste of those particular trees and prefers them because of certain organic nutrients those trees provide and the whole oxidative stress thing is restricted to only the fungus where its exposed to light and a metal compound in the soil in the early spring thus fruiting because of oxidative stress then they sporulate and the spores germinate in a location that may be shielded from light and then summer moves in and the fungus responds to the ROS metal compounds in the soil forming sclerotia in the appropriate way and very large, then by fall leaves are just starting to drop one by one leaving a small period where oxidative stress can occur for a short time, then fully covered by leaves and protected from light again all the way through winter until early spring where light may hit an area that was protected but got unprotected due to wind or movement of the leaves so light hits a small amount on the soil where the fungus is at stimulating it with oxidative stress again and triggering fruiting.
Fungi are capable of producing Vitamin C to fight off cellular hydrogen peroxide that they produce during oxidative stress, rather it is an ascorbate enzyme called ascorbate peroxidase. There is a sclerotia producing fungus that does this and it is in the phyla Ascomycota.
They all are probably like this, including ergot which is in Ascomycota.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony


Edited by AcidHorse (09/20/10 10:02 AM)


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OfflineLakotis
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Re: Morels mycorrhizal? if so, why primarly around dead Elm/Popul [Re: AcidHorse]
    #13224810 - 09/20/10 11:07 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I will have to study your response, with a clearer mind.

But what I think your saying is: The Morels may be on the live tree roots, then are triggered into a yearly fruiting cycle by a change of state in the tree. Perhaps associated with increased light.

Tests could be done, though would need a small nursery full of Elm saplings.

I was hoping it would be as simple as Elm root compost, though no doubt many have tried this very thing.

Brain is fried tonight.

tomorrow need to read up on oxidative stress.


--------------------
"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."
John Maynard Keynes



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OfflineAcidHorse
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Re: Morels mycorrhizal? if so, why primarly around dead Elm/Popul [Re: Lakotis]
    #13226210 - 09/21/10 09:46 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

CALCIUM CARBONATE-INDUCED ENHANCEMENT OF MORCHELLA ESCULENTA
MYCELIAL GROWTH AND SCLEROTIA FORMATION
Masaphy, S. Migal, P.O.B. 831, Kiryat Shmona 11016, and Tel Hai Academic College, Upper
Galilee, 12210 Israel
38
An essential step in the Morchella life cycle is the production of sclerotia, which is a key factor in
fruiting body formation and quality. Sclerotia production is dependent on the composition of the
growth medium. The effect of adding calcium carbonate to potato dextrose agar medium on the
morphology and growth rate of vegetative mycelium and sclerotia formation in M. esculenta was
studied. Calcium carbonate increased both the linear growth rate of mycelium and the formation
of sclerotia. Other salts, such as magnesium carbonate and calcium oxide, had an effect similar to
calcium carbonate, unlike sodium carbonate and potassium carbonate, while calcium sulfate
increased sclerotia production, but not the mycelial growth rate. It was concluded that the pH of
the medium changed due to the addition of calcium carbonate, which affected fungal growth and
morphology.


The other trigger(s).

Calcium carbonate and calcium sulfate have an effect on them too that is needed in addition to oxidative stress.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony


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Re: Morels mycorrhizal? if so, why primarly around dead Elm/Popul [Re: Lakotis]
    #13226246 - 09/21/10 09:55 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You don't need trees, you just have to get the fungus to "make" what it needs to survive.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony


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