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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #9704370 -

to me it looks like compost that's not fully decomposed.  Heh heh here's an idea-at a certain stage during the composting process, the compost reaches a high temperature (150F I believe), leaving only 'thermophilic' bacteria alive.  N would be almost completely immobilized at this stage, so the Morel mycelium would have no chance of decomposing that material.  It would also be sort of self-pasteurized. Who the f*ck knows, I'll get workin this weekend.

Also I want to mention that yesterday I was in class learning about forcing flower bulbs.  Certain bulbs undergo chemical and physiological changes during a prolonged cold treatment (carbohydrates become sugars, flower parts form, etc.). If the cold treatment isn't long enough, these processes can't be completed.  I think maybe we can learn something from this.  Maybe if we treat the sclerotia like the flowers that emerge during morel season (Iris, lilies?) this would help.


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Edited by faffle (01/30/09 07:22 AM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9705821 -

faffle said:
to me it looks like compost that's not fully decomposed.  Heh heh here's an idea-at a certain stage during the composting process, the compost reaches a high temperature (150F I believe), leaving only 'thermophilic' bacteria alive.  N would be almost completely immobilized at this stage, so the Morel mycelium would have no chance of decomposing that material.  It would also be sort of self-pasteurized. Who the f*ck knows, I'll get workin this weekend.

Also I want to mention that yesterday I was in class learning about forcing flower bulbs.  Certain bulbs undergo chemical and physiological changes during a prolonged cold treatment (carbohydrates become sugars, flower parts form, etc.). If the cold treatment isn't long enough, these processes can't be completed.  I think maybe we can learn something from this.  Maybe if we treat the sclerotia like the flowers that emerge during morel season (Iris, lilies?) this would help.


Yeah but morels aren't plants.

In the Mills video Alan Alda says "after a month of simulated summer, the sclerotia are dug out".

It takes a month for the sclerotia to develop, and in order for them to develop it needs to be like summertime conditions.

Which makes sense because the micro-sclerotia will develop immediately. And in nature some morel spores will fall to the ground immediately
and then germinate immediately and produce micro-sclerotia immediately (moist late spring), months before the peak of the summer (dryness).

But what makes them grow in excess? Because from experience the growth stalls out after a while. So apparently there must be a
bacteria that is also growing out there in excess and morels either like what it does for them or they don't like what it does for them.

Maybe it likes what it does for them and they store up excess nutrients because of them, yet the bacteria doesn't last that long due to the drying of the summertime and that means there is a deadline. So morels have to act fast to survive even the summer.

In the fall they may be exposed again to the same bacteria or a totally different one. Which that could mean they react differently, good or bad. But it boils down to whether or not whatever it is that motivates the morels, if it doesn't exist in the jars the morel mycelium will not do
what it should.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9709379 -

Yet while on the topic, have you noticed in those photos of Mills' labs in the pictures from MSU and that other
picture of morels growing in black trays from some site in belgium or whereever.

Have you noticed that the morels are leaning towards a light source?

In Mills lab there are lights on each wall facing the racks and 50% of the morels lean toward one way and the rest the other opposite side.
And in the one picture from belgium the morels are leaning in one direction towards a light source.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (01/31/09 12:00 AM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9710986 -

Yeah, what I was saying is that the key to growing any plant or fungus is to simulate the natural environment.  In horticulture it's very important to know the plant's native origin.  It gives you an idea of how to care for the plant.  I'm always fascinated by the fact that half of what I'm being taught in horticulture classes applies to fungi as well.  I'm sitting there in class learning twice as much as any other student, and the teacher is reinforcing my mushroom knowledge without even knowing it.  Heh, then whenever the teach asks me a question, I can't answer cause I'm busy thinkin about mushrooms, and I look like a dumbass. :grin:


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9713692 -

faffle said:
Yeah, what I was saying is that the key to growing any plant or fungus is to simulate the natural environment.  In horticulture it's very important to know the plant's native origin.  It gives you an idea of how to care for the plant.  I'm always fascinated by the fact that half of what I'm being taught in horticulture classes applies to fungi as well.  I'm sitting there in class learning twice as much as any other student, and the teacher is reinforcing my mushroom knowledge without even knowing it.  Heh, then whenever the teach asks me a question, I can't answer cause I'm busy thinkin about mushrooms, and I look like a dumbass. :grin:


Yeah it looks like a rule of thumb when hunting black morels that one should
start looking when the lows have been above 50°F for at least 5 days.

As for the yellows? It appears that when the highs have been above 70°F.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9713993 -

So any ideas yet on which bacteria to use? Nitrifying or Denitrifying? And if we got some of that in powdered form then
should we inoculate that on the sterilized media? Along with the morel spores?
If the morel produces large sclerotia then afterwards, then we would know if the need for a plant for big sclerotia would be
out of the picture or not.

But it looks like its definitely a situation that revolves around nitrogen in one form or another.

With the nitrifying bacteria I can see morels getting nutrients and that sort of stuff, plus it coincides with disturbed ground like
landscape situations where morels pop up, and disturbed ground stops the denitrifying bacteria, and keeps the ground fertile.

But that doesn't sound like something that would cause morels to fruit, rather it sounds like the denitrifying bacteria would be
the best candidate for causing them to fruit. Because they cause the soil to go nutrient poor.

To explore the reason for reported high field fluxes of nitrous oxide (N2O) from temperate soils in winter and early spring, we investigated the temperature response of denitrifier N2O production and reduction in soil from three arable field sites along a temperature transect reaching from Finland over Sweden to Germany. Process rates were determined in anaerobic slurries with or without added NO3−, N2O and C2H2 at 0, 5, 10, 15, and 20 °C (and 30 °C in one experiment). The experiments were conducted immediately after the soils had become anaerobic, and after a long (48 h) anaerobic pre-incubation with excess of carbon and electron acceptors. All denitrifying enzymes were found to be active in the soil at onset of anaerobiosis. Significant levels of N2O production and reduction occurred at 0 °C, both at onset of anaerobiosis and after the 2 days anaerobic pre-incubation. Temperature response of N2O production and reduction could be fitted to an Arrhenius function in the range 5–20 °C, yielding apparent activation energies between 28 and 76 kJ mol−1. The estimated activation energy of the N2O reduction was found to be similar or lower than that for N2O production. High field N2O fluxes in winter and early spring could thus not be explained by the temperature sensitivity of the two processes. However, major deviations from the regular Arrhenius response were found for two soils at near freezing temperature. The rates measured at 0 °C were much lower than those predicted by the Arrhenius function based on data in the temperature range 5–20 °C. Low temperature may thus exert a particular challenge to denitrifying communities for some reason, and the effect was found to be most severe for the N2O reduction process. When such a breakdown affects N2O reductase to a greater extent than the N2O producing enzymes (NO3−, NO2−, and NO reductase), as was found in our soils, it will result in high N2O fluxes at low temperature. The temperature response of the estimated net N2O emission potential (based on measured N2O production and reduction rates) differed significantly between the three sites, indicating inherent differences between their microbial communities.

The seasonal fluctuations in the concentration of cultured denitrifying and N_2-fixing bacteria were followed in an ammonium fertilised and a control soil of a Norway spruce forest near Villingen/Black Forest from December 1994 to August 1998. The horizontal distribution of bacteria in three layers was determined by the MPN-method and by molecular probing (colony hybridisation) using specific 0.4–0.7 kb DNA probes for denitrification steps (narG, nirS, nirK and nosZ) and for N_2-fixation (nifH). The data showed that highest bacterial counts and higher numbers of denitrifying and N_2-fixing bacteria were generally detectable in the upper (= 5 cm) soil layer and that their amount decreased with soil depth. The concentration of these cultured bacteria showed seasonal fluctuations with highest numbers in autumn/winter/early spring and with low counts in summer. Denitrifying and N_2-fixing bacteria amounted to less than 10% of the total number of cultured bacteria determined by the MPN-method. Fertilisation with ammonium did not cause a shift in the population of these bacteria. These findings were corroborated by hybridisation experiments with genomic DNA isolated from the different layers. Strongest DNA–DNA hybridisation band intensities were obtained in the upper soil layer and their intensities decreased with soil depth. Soil samples from Villingen assayed in the laboratory produced N_2O (in dependence of nitrate and C_2H_2 added to the vessels) and utilised this gas with higher activities in the assays with the fertilised soil. It is concluded that molecular techniques can successfully be applied for assessing seasonal fluctuations of bacterial populations in soil. Relative abundance of denitrifying and N_2-fixing bacteria can be determined from experiments with DNA isolated from soils. Attempts to transform these results to the total population of soil bacteria on a single cell basis are faced with many uncertainties.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9714061 -

I'm not sure where you are at. But where I live, the summer of 2008 was unusually cool and wet, and this is a temperate location.
But I'm betting that this year will be a whopper of a morel season. If morels need those bacteria for assisting in food storage,
then since the summer was cool and moist those bacteria were around for quite a bit of time. Hmmm. Monster morels this year?
But what if its the other way around? They didn't need them to create sclerotia and the summer prompted it by reducing the bacteria
population? I find that hard to swallow. Look at our morel jars, sterilized jars, no bacteria, little sclerotia.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (01/31/09 08:33 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9714532 -

Another thing I also want to point out is that morels are not the best decomposers.
For half a cup of ryegrass seed, it would take 3 years at least for morels to break it down significantly.
I don't understand why they are poor decomposers. If you smell your grass seed it has a rank smell about it,
but the seed isn't really decomposed.

So another thing is saprophytic bacteria. Are they needed for helping morels out any?


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9724040 -

i got a camera!
my sclerotia jars:(some a little blury)






Here's all the morel projects i have going now:



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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #9751005 -

come on guys more input


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #9753809 -

I've got 6 petri dishes with M. elata mycelium growing now.  Hard to see unless you hold it up to the light just right.  I'll post pics once it becomes more visible. :grin:  this is my first time using agar :thumbup:


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9754453 -

nice are you using strait agar or did you use addatives? morels do best on strait agar no nutes. Hope you get some killer growth. let us know when you get sclerotia.


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #9760204 -

come on people we need more input coming in does anybody have any morel projects going on? i just fgot a spore works m. elata culture. how about you acidhorse got anyting going on?


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #9761316 -

  hard to see because of condensation.  inoculated on 2/3 and mycelium already coats the entire surface.  There are little white knots forming all over, maybe sclerotia?  you can see them near the bottom.  This mycelium grows FAST.  For comparison, here's my reishi culture inoculated on the same day. 
that is straight agar btw.  just followed the instructions on the bottle

Edited by faffle (02/08/09 09:24 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9771375 -

  Sclerotia?


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9792889 -

Looks like the starts of some.
Been away for a while writing software.
I wrote an XP service that logs weather data.
It gets data from NOAA and wunderground.com
Now I'm working on a decent program to graph the data.
Its almost done too. I want the jump on the season this year.
And I got a good idea where those conditions should be for a certain
amount of time.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (02/13/09 10:09 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #9796075 -

  20 jars.  all have milo for nutrient rich layer, and a piece of window screen over that. Nutrient poor layers-5 sand, 5 fresh compost mixed with sand, 5 old compost i grew a tomato plant in last summer mixed with sand also, and 5 old potting soil I also grew a tomato plant in.  all the nute poor layers have some gypsum mixed in as well.  I made a depression in the layer to place agar wedges into so the mycelium doesnt have to reach too far, and i can watch it colonize.  :smile:


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9798536 -

faffle said:
  20 jars.  all have milo for nutrient rich layer, and a piece of window screen over that. Nutrient poor layers-5 sand, 5 fresh compost mixed with sand, 5 old compost i grew a tomato plant in last summer mixed with sand also, and 5 old potting soil I also grew a tomato plant in.  all the nute poor layers have some gypsum mixed in as well.  I made a depression in the layer to place agar wedges into so the mycelium doesnt have to reach too far, and i can watch it colonize.  :smile:


So which manner and method did you prepare those by?

pasteurized the top layer?

Those look like pretty aggressive growth.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9798552 -

My oven only goes down to 170°F so I'll have to use the stove to get 140°F. I'm still wondering about the time duration at that temperature.
An hour? or more?


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
    #9798614 -

When you take those pictures you ought to sit the camera on a level surface so that you can get rid of the blurriness.
That'a way its possible to see the individual hyphae of the fungus. It makes it possible to distinguish somewhat if its morel
or if its a mold. But don't worry too much just make sure you have a filter disc on that thing so that drying occurs somewhat.
It should take a month to get some decent sized sclerotia. If they happen.
But from what I can see that might be the key: pasteurization. hybrid pasteurize / sterilized grain.
The sand is a much better "screen" for separating the grain from the mulch.
I think that is.
But I'd like to see the results of using a screen. Wider spaces equals more FAE. But that doesn't mean its a good thing.
Contaminates would have an easier time getting down directly to the grain, so that's why I use sand.
I've seen sand limit trichoderma and penicillia. Doesn't stop it totally but it does hinder its growth. Not the case with morels.
Morel is fast and slices through the sand quickly. Its hindered by wet sand though, somewhat.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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