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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: manyc]
    #9106261 -

Lol, fair enough.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: JohnnyTruant]
    #9106466 -

JohnnyTruant said:
Can you give an example of a lifeform that didn't reproduce?


No, by definition a lifeform is that which reproduces.  That which does not reproduce is non-living. 

Quote:
As for the ones that did reproduce, why did they?


There is no why...you're talking about science.  Science operates on ability and opportunity.  If you want to discuss this scientifically, you need to discard "why" and examine "how."

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9106506 -

Oweyervishice said:
The same reason a rock doesn't reproduce itself...it's just the way it is.  I don't think there is any real answer for this...reproduction has been going on for so long that it is hard-wired in to every living thing. :shrug:

It's very weird. :lol:



that doesn't work because a rock does not have the capability to reproduce/replicate


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9106517 -

Quote:
Can you give an example of a lifeform that didn't reproduce? As for the ones that did reproduce, why did they?

Reproduction is a defining characteristic of any lifeform so something that actively undergoes random change without somehow reproducing itself fails to be considered alive, though as the number of years of small random changes grows to infinity the chance of reproduction randomly manifesting itself chemically (RNA, simple cells, DNA etc) grows to 100%. So basically if a collection of chemicals that are necessary for life is isolated and stimulated constantly life eventually evolves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment

Quote:
Life predates definitions. It is an arbitrary distinction and to me that makes it kind of irrelevant. In the beginning, before there was a such thing as a definition, there was a thing, or multiple things (I wasn't there so I don't know which), and this thing(s) made more of itself.



Things don't reproduce without evolving to do so, and that evolution is just a type of change through time. So it isn't exactly that these things made more of themselves, rather that they exist in time. Anything that exists in time can 'collect' a random amount of change and it is through certain patterns of change that life 'selected' reproduction as a favorable attribute. As Owey said it is a type of physical immortality. Without reproduction life wouldnt have the fluidity necessary for change - an organism would be stuck doing whatever works and once it stops working the organism would die.

Quote:
And anyway, where did the urge come from?


It's an emergent property.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Quote:
My parents drink coffee, so did their parents, and their parents' parents, so shouldn't I drink it too by that logic.


What about water?

Quote:
I'm getting answers as to why we now feel the need to reproduce.

Yep.


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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: JohnnyTruant]
    #9106842 -

Considering that viruses can only replicate in the cellular environment, cells that replicate would have to come first. Is there a "missing link"? A virus like form that didn't need a cell to replicate, and which eventually evolved into a cell?

If there is, it seems right to assume that these types of cell free "viruses" should still exist in some form. As far as I know they haven't been detected. Without having a cell to look into, it might be hard to detect such a virus.

I find it hard to believe that a cell could become complex enough without evolution to create a function which divides. The self replicating, quasi "virus", which we haven't detected seems like the best bet. Primordial soup in it's early stage wouldn't have been competitive, so fragile chains of proto-life would survive longer. The chains grow long and a split in the chain doesn't destroy the structure. Chains that have this capability naturally become most abundant.

Eventually these non-lifeforms developed additional properties. Long chains were not only more likely to be torn apart, some of them had "flaws" that caused them to break apart with no help. These guys would have a super advantage, and would become dominant.  Protective husks develop, but some cells retain the ability to exchange material. Different strategies arise. Some cells allow additional information in, some cells become protective enough to reinforce their asexual nature. In either case, the strategies would allow for continued survival.

Up to this point, molecules that bond together in ways that cause replication might still not be considered alive. They must have some form of energy, and some means of consuming energy. Sunlight is easy enough. Or perhaps radiant heat could be captured in the molecular matrix. This additional energy in the structure causes energy to bleed off in an ordered manner. Now we've got replication, and movement. Movement would be a means of spreading out, giving it a dominant edge. The rest is just a matter of time.

The only problem with this idea, is that even if the whole process could be replicated in a lab, and be understood down to the molecular level, we still wouldn't understand it. Why is it so? What causes different elements to react to each other in the specific ways they do? It's mystical. Perhaps one day we'll be able to create rudimentary replicating biological forms, but could we possibly answer the question of why we're able to do so?

It seems to me, to be the nature of the universe, which really isn't saying much except to acknowledge the mystical. And, any further comment on it would be based in unprovable belief no?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: JohnnyTruant]
    #9106886 -

JohnnyTruant said:
Seriously, why? I've never heard of a lifeform that doesn't somehow replicate itself. Why is this? The instinct is so strong in humans that many people freak out if they don't get sex. They literally have to have it. Animals are the same way. Plants reproduce. Single celled organisms split themselves into multiple copies. Even viruses, who lack their own cells, find ways to copy themselves. I haven't figured this out yet. No one I've ever talked to had any ideas. Does anyone here have any thoughts on the subject?


Life is life, so it wants to stay alive. Since every living being eventually dies, it (in an abstract sense) carries on its life through offspring. To REALLY answer this question, we all have to understand exactly what life is, and consequently, why. If we don't fully understand the meaning, purpose, and reasons for life, we can't even come close to figuring out why it reproduces itself. Perhaps the answer to that question is answered by life's meaning, purpose, and reasons.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Veritas]
    #9106899 -

Veritas said:
Science operates on ability and opportunity.


I've never seen this mentioned in the scientific method. Any sources to back this statement? I don't doubt that it's correct, I've just never come across it before.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Rahz]
    #9106927 -

Rahz said:
Now we've got replication....


Energy cannot be created or destroyed, so therefore, a molecule that "replicates" itself cannot be considered life. I'm not sure if that's what you were getting at, but I'm just saying.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Poid]
    #9106934 -

Quote:
Energy cannot be created or destroyed, so therefore, a molecule that "replicates" itself cannot be considered life.


I dont understand how that conclusion follows from that premise.  :wtf:

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9107043 -

Because it's not really replicating itself. When an organism replicates, it essentially creates a new mass of matter out of nothing (literally, nothing but spermatozoa and an egg). A molecule borrows already existing sub-atomic particles to "replicate".


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Poid]
    #9107049 -

Poid said:
Rahz said:
Now we've got replication....


Energy cannot be created or destroyed, so therefore, a molecule that "replicates" itself cannot be considered life. I'm not sure if that's what you were getting at, but I'm just saying.


yea, i don't recall viruses being considered living in a scientific way of thinking


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Poid]
    #9107207 -

Quote:
Poid said:When an organism replicates, it essentially creates a new mass of matter out of nothing (literally, nothing but spermatozoa and an egg).


huh?  Life doesnt make new mass of matter out of nothing... the new mass comes from food.  Molecules borrow existing atoms to replicate, and so does life.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9107287 -

I know, that's why I said essentially, and why I added the essentials in parentheses. The mass added by food isn't what I was talking about, I meant that life can create a new self-sustaining mass out of just sperm and an egg. That creation, the new life form which will grow in mass, is different than the replication of molecules. But molecules don't replicate at all, they just form out of existing environmental conditions. They don't reproduce, they don't have sex, they're not "alive".

Are you asserting that molecules are sentient?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Poid]
    #9107309 -

No.  Most life isnt even sentient, so of course a molecule is not.

Life replicating is molecules replicating.  Its a special case of it.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9107476 -

Of course, but we know that is an abstract way of looking at it.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? *DELETED* [Re: DieCommie]
    #9107493 -

Post deleted by maudlin

Reason for deletion: eh


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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: maudlin]
    #9107543 -

What is the sourse for any and all material? I think the answer to that question will be the answer to yours.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Poid]
    #9107562 -

Poid said:
I know, that's why I said essentially, and why I added the essentials in parentheses. The mass added by food isn't what I was talking about, I meant that life can create a new self-sustaining mass out of just sperm and an egg. That creation, the new life form which will grow in mass, is different than the replication of molecules. But molecules don't replicate at all, they just form out of existing environmental conditions. They don't reproduce, they don't have sex, they're not "alive".

Are you asserting that molecules are sentient?


Groups of molecules, bacteria, reproduce without sex, sperm, or eggs. They just kinda squeeze themselves in two.

Meiosis (the sharing of chromosomes) can be observed in single celled eukaryotes. This is considered sexual reproduction and doesn't require sperm or eggs.

Some types of fungi are sexless and can exchange genetic information. Even fungi that are sexed don't use egg and sperm.

As far as sentience, it's not a requirement for life is it? Are bacteria sentient? Where does electro-chemical reaction end, and sentience begin?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Rahz]
    #9107652 -

I know, I wasn't asserting that for something to be considered alive, it needs to be able to reproduce sexually.

Is meiosis really considered sexual reproduction? I don't remember this from 10th grade biology.....

I don't think most scientists today consider microorganisms sentient, but science has been wrong many times, is probably wrong about some things today, and will likely be wrong about things in the future.

The neurotransmitter model of the brain is based on studies conducted on a dead frog. How a dead frog relates to a living human in this context is beyond me, so I am slightly skeptical of the whole serotonin being linked to depression and other such neuroscience claims.

Sentience begins where emotion and intelligence is involved, I suppose.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why does life reproduce itself? [Re: Poid]
    #9107662 -

Quote:
DieCommie said:
No.  Most life isnt even sentient, so of course a molecule is not.

Life replicating is molecules replicating.  Its a special case of it.


Quote:
Poid said:
Of course, but we know that is an abstract way of looking at it.


Really? I'd say seeing life as anything more than a unique pattern that molecules take on is the more abstract conception...though it is also very natural to feel this way, seeing as that is what we are.

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