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 shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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 Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce 
#5099778 - 12/23/05 10:13 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Last week I went out with a girl that I know from one of my philosophy classes. She seems perfect for me in a lot of ways, and we really hit it off, but she told me she does not want to have children. At this point in my life I'm really looking for a wife, and not wanting kids is a deal breaker. Her reason is because the world is over-populated.
This got me thinking...
If the world is over-populated, or soon will be, then it would be wise for couples to limit the number of children they bring into the world. However, people only think like this in first world countries. In third world countries people are having as many children as they ever did. It seems to me that if people in developed countries stop having children, then the world population will continue to grow exponentially, because people in third world countries will continue have lots of kids, even as first world populations decrease. This will lead to a vast population of uneducated, backward, dare I say primitive, people competing for the limited resources of the earth, without enough intelligent, well-fed, well-bred, educated people to help them use those limited resources wisely.
I'm not saying every American and European family should have eight kids, but I feel that I have a duty to pass on my genes to one or two or three kids, so that my children might someday find ways to feed, house, and educate the ever increasing multitude of poor from third world countries.
It seems to me that over-population is unavoidable, whether I have a couple of children or not, and it seems to me that the overpopulated world be a better place with my kids in it. 
I would love to hear your thoughts on this before I talk to this girl about it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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 Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5099842 - 12/23/05 10:27 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Every wannabe parent tends to justify their desire for babies by saying that there children will be the ones to right the wrongs and save the planet. Nothing could be further from the truth. Sorry. I like were your girl is coming from. Leave her alone and let her make her choice. If you really love her you'll respect it and build a life with her anyway. Most likely she will change her mind anyway. If kids are the deal breaker then you can easily find tons who will have your offspring.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5099846 - 12/23/05 10:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: Icelander]
#5099863 - 12/23/05 10:31 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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If kids are the deal breaker then you can easily find tons who will have your offspring.
Never date a woman over a ton. 
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The proof is in the pudding.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: spud]
#5099888 - 12/23/05 10:39 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Spud said:
It is not a question of the human population outstripping resources, since food production continues to exceed population growth and non-renewable resources become more plentiful each year as new sources are found.
Exactly!
My question is how will the technology that allows for greater food production and new energy sources be able to keep up with population growth if all the capable people stop reproducing while the world is overrun with uneducated peasants?
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 kotik
fuckingsuperhero
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5099937 - 12/23/05 10:52 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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your stance seems to be leaning towards that of eugenics. I disagree. If you were to educate even the poorest of third world children, they could grow up to be just as healthy and productive as anyone else. Your use of the word "peasants" seems a little ignorant, no offense intended. Being educated has nothing to do with your race. No human has ever been born smart, they all must be taught to a certain extent.
that being said, I totally agree with the chick. This fuckin planet has more than enough of us to make sure we do not go extinct. But even so, what does it matter? It seems a bit selfish / egotistical to have 8 kids just because you feel that you need to pass your superior genes on to the future. If anyone was really that fucking awesome, they would be able to pass on their knowledge and any other contributions, and make a lasting impact without crowding the earth even more.
for example, Tesla. (no, not the fucking rock band)
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5099974 - 12/23/05 11:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not saying every American and European family should have eight kids, but I feel that I have a duty to pass on my genes to one or two or three kids
Excuse me if my bluntness comes off as arrogant; I'm not trying to offend anyone. I think it goes without saying that some people are naturally smarter than others due to their genes.
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secretmachine
lover of mystery
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5100210 - 12/23/05 11:52 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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now i agree with you about the third world countries being horribly overpopulated, and them continally overpopulating.. however i disagree on the thinking that we in first world are doing any better, look around! look how many fat people there are in america, thats not wise use of resources. Look at all the cars we make, thats not wise.
to go with the other point though, im not having kids either, because i feel its a waste of my time. I want to have fun, not deal with the stress and financial burden of a child. Ever seen a DINK couple? thats double income no kids. They get all the best toys, have a nice house, and generally have fun. And how many stressed out mothers have we all seen? Kids are a pain in the ass, lets get it right. But hey it gives alot of people a purpose in life, and i guess thats a plus.
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A civilization based on authority-and-submission is a civilization without the means of self-correction. Effective communication flows only one way: from master-group to servile-group. Any cyberneticist knows that such a one-way communication channel lacks feedback and cannot behave "intelligently."
the principle of authority" was the "eminently theological, metaphysical and political idea that the masses, always incapable of governing themselves, must submit at all times to the benevolent yoke of a wisdom and a justice, which in one way or another, is imposed from above."
"no one should be entrusted with power, inasmuch as anyone invested with authority must . . . became an oppressor and exploiter of society."
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BleaK
paradox
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5100382 - 12/24/05 12:40 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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beyond the issue of overpoulation...
consider the possibility that your children may not appreciate the experience of life.
and its not a choice entirely.
why risk something as wonderfull as human consciouness?
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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma
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BigGirlLover
Stranger
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: BleaK]
#5100731 - 12/24/05 04:05 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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the philosophical debates on this forum are so elementary and under-developed. Makes BigGirlLover Cry...
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: BigGirlLover]
#5100737 - 12/24/05 04:09 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's more casual than debate.Sharing and exploring, and introducing.
There are some good debaters here if that's what you like.
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Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
Edited by Booby (12/24/05 04:12 AM)
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5102481 - 12/24/05 03:58 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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This isn't even a question for philosophical discussion, it is a matter of personal preference. Some people want to have kids, others don't.
I have no kids. Never wanted any, don't miss 'em. I'm married to a woman who has no kids. She never wanted any and doesn't miss 'em either. I've been in several serious relationships in my time on this earth (over half a century now) but never with a woman who wanted to have kids.
If you want kids and your lady doesn't, it's time to end the relationship now before it goes bad -- because it will go bad if you honestly want to have kids and she honestly doesn't want to have kids.
As for the "moral duty" to reproduce, there is no such moral duty. It's a morally neutral subject.
Phred
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: Phred]
#5102490 - 12/24/05 04:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm fully permissive. Nothing is wrong in my eyes, unless you make it so. And not having kids isn't wrong... in fact, its a plus!
Think of the money you'll save! Say no to marriage and kids!
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
 
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5102549 - 12/24/05 04:30 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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poverty back in the days.. plague set in.. many died...
no more overpopulation..
get the picture?
and Duty to Reproduce? say what?
I only see the Duty to masturbate and send those suckers down the drain, or in a paper tissue or the free outdoors..
who said we got a Duty to Reproduce?
and when?
I must have missed this one.. 
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Disclaimer!?
Edited by Gomp (12/24/05 04:33 PM)
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: Phred]
#5102919 - 12/24/05 07:08 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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This isn't even a question for philosophical discussion.
Sure it's an appropriate question for philosophical discussion.
There are three branches of philosophy: metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics. Whether or not those of superior ability have a duty to pass on their genes for the benefit of future humanity is a question which falls squarely into the field of ethics.
As an extreme example of the point I'm making, consider how the world would be, if everybody that could read beyond a grade-school level disappeared tomorrow. Who would genetically engineer better food crops? Who would make vaccines? Who would build the spaceships that may one day allow us to colonize other planets?
It seems to me that a less extreme version of that scenario will occur if civilized people of high intelligence stop having children, while their less developed brothers and sisters keep banging away.
It seems the worst case scenario of overpopulation would occur, if it happened that there were more people than the resources of the earth could sustain, while at the same time there were not enough people capable of increasing those resources or finding new ones.
Because those of lower ability are not going to stop reproducing at an exponential rate, those of higher ability need to keep up, so that the carrying capacity of the human habitat may increase with the population growth. Otherwise, things could get really ugly for the human species. When other animal species reproduce past the carrying capacity of their environments, the population suffers catastrophic death rates from disease and famine. Many of these species resort to cannibalism. I don't want to see this happen to humanity. Because we can't stop the ignorant from having so many children, the wise must find a way to increase the carrying capacity of the habitat, or find new habitats on other planets.
This is why is seems to me that if humanity is going to survive 'overpopulation', then those of superior genetic stock must keep their genes in the gene pool.
I suppose it's up to each person to decide if he cares about the future of humanity, and if his genes are worth passing on.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5102922 - 12/24/05 07:10 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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So in essence, you are saying the MIT grads should form gang rape parties and head to the ghettos...?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: Swami]
#5102929 - 12/24/05 07:14 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Look out Watts, here we cum!" 
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signoffate
Only Human
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5104006 - 12/25/05 01:35 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I want to tell you something, but I don't have the words right now, I just pray that you learn for yourself, in time, that what your saying feeling and thinking is very sad.
Merry Christmas
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: signoffate]
#5104279 - 12/25/05 07:48 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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is there anything prayers wont fix?
oh wait, yes.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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 Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: kotik]
#5104284 - 12/25/05 07:52 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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prayers wont fix anything..
but prayers may lead you, on to the path of fixing it, yourself!
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5104289 - 12/25/05 07:58 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroomydan said:
This isn't even a question for philosophical discussion.
Sure it's an appropriate question for philosophical discussion.
There are three branches of philosophy: metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics. Whether or not those of superior ability have a duty to pass on their genes for the benefit of future humanity is a question which falls squarely into the field of ethics.
As an extreme example of the point I'm making, consider how the world would be, if everybody that could read beyond a grade-school level disappeared tomorrow. Who would genetically engineer better food crops? Who would make vaccines? Who would build the spaceships that may one day allow us to colonize other planets?
It seems to me that a less extreme version of that scenario will occur if civilized people of high intelligence stop having children, while their less developed brothers and sisters keep banging away.
It seems the worst case scenario of overpopulation would occur, if it happened that there were more people than the resources of the earth could sustain, while at the same time there were not enough people capable of increasing those resources or finding new ones.
Because those of lower ability are not going to stop reproducing at an exponential rate, those of higher ability need to keep up, so that the carrying capacity of the human habitat may increase with the population growth. Otherwise, things could get really ugly for the human species. When other animal species reproduce past the carrying capacity of their environments, the population suffers catastrophic death rates from disease and famine. Many of these species resort to cannibalism. I don't want to see this happen to humanity. Because we can't stop the ignorant from having so many children, the wise must find a way to increase the carrying capacity of the habitat, or find new habitats on other planets.
This is why is seems to me that if humanity is going to survive 'overpopulation', then those of superior genetic stock must keep their genes in the gene pool.
I suppose it's up to each person to decide if he cares about the future of humanity, and if his genes are worth passing on.
Eugenics.
"Excepting in the case of man himself, hardly anyone is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed." --Charles Darwin
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: it stars saddam]
#5104461 - 12/25/05 09:43 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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despite his obvious knowledge on the subject, it seems that with or without darwin, evolution seemed to have worked out just fine on its own.
eugenics is a pseudoscience.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: kotik]
#5104771 - 12/25/05 12:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
kotik said:
with or without darwin, evolution seemed to have worked out just fine on its own.
Really? It seems like it worked out to be an absolute disaster.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: it stars saddam]
#5104797 - 12/25/05 12:38 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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compared to what?
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Jfisher
fungusaficionado
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: kotik]
#5105115 - 12/25/05 04:02 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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There's an easy answer to your problem:
Adopt.
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Any images do not belong to the owner of this account.
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: kotik]
#5105176 - 12/25/05 04:23 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
kotik said:
compared to what?
the potential of a society that had adopted eugenics
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: it stars saddam]
#5105371 - 12/25/05 06:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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right, because eugenics worked out so well for the last group that tried it right?
wrong.
much like excessive pedigree dog breeding leads to other problems. the more variety, the better the chances of evolution. at least thats what us retards think.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: kotik]
#5105557 - 12/25/05 08:07 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Eugenics does not aim to eliminate variety. Its sole purpose is to limit the propagation of those genes which are detrimental to the human species as a whole.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: it stars saddam]
#5105798 - 12/25/05 09:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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but who gets to decide what is detrimental, and what is beneficial?
and aside from that, we have only just recently begun to understand what traits are genetic, and which are not.
the genetic code was only cracked in 1966.. we have so far to go still, and you already want to start weeding genes out? jumping the gun by at least a few hundred years i would say...
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: kotik]
#5105983 - 12/25/05 10:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey!
I'm not not advocating "weeding out" anyone. I'm just saying that those who are superior (you know who you are) have a duty to pass on their genes.
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5105988 - 12/25/05 10:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroomydan said:
those who are superior (you know who you are)
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TheGus
The Walrus
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: it stars saddam]
#5106058 - 12/25/05 10:39 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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hey bud, its also very important to shelter children rather unfortunate and actually educate them and give them a chance at a good life
help attend the already over populated area by fixing up the 'supports' for our next generation
im sure your lady friend would not object to that, i mean shes a woman, women have motherly instincts even if they dont want to have kids of their own
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"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
 I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car. -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: TheGus]
#5106064 - 12/25/05 10:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't have a lady friend, hombre.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: it stars saddam]
#5106703 - 12/26/05 06:26 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
those who are superior (you know who you are) have a duty to pass on their genes.
it seems you know the meaning of life or something? heh... i mean, even if these "superior genes" get passed on, what does it matter? Ants and cockroaches will still outlive us.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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PsychoChipmunk
Small, Furry, Disturbed
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: kotik]
#5106933 - 12/26/05 08:58 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Please take what follows with a MASSIVE grain of salt, don't take any of it seriously. That said-
Perhaps the fact that food production keeps increasing is at the heart of the overpopulation issue. Maybe the problem is that those with 'superiour genes' keep upping the available supply of food. In addition, because those of 'superior ability' are such wonderful people, they provide humanitarian aid to populations that are not self sustaining... so they continue to grow rather than come to an equilibrium.
So, if all those with 'superior genes,' have less/no offspring, then the food supply and humanitarian aid to areas that populated by 'uneducated peasants' will decrease. In conclusion, the best thing that could happen would be to sterilize all those in the developed world, that is, if you just want to control the population.
On a side note, has anyone following this thread read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn?
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\m/
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: PsychoChipmunk]
#5106954 - 12/26/05 09:11 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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nope, but i plan to!
anyone read "The Wanting Seed" by Anthony Burgess? It's pretty much on this same topic: overpopulation.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: kotik]
#5107178 - 12/26/05 10:57 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
kotik said:
Quote:
those who are superior (you know who you are) have a duty to pass on their genes.
it seems you know the meaning of life or something? heh... i mean, even if these "superior genes" get passed on, what does it matter? Ants and cockroaches will still outlive us.
That quote was actually made by ShroomyDan, not myself.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: shroomydan]
#5107535 - 12/26/05 12:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I refuse to do my dirty, I mean duty.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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kotik
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Re: Over Population and the Duty to Reproduce [Re: Icelander]
#5107878 - 12/26/05 03:24 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
That quote was actually made by ShroomyDan, not myself.
ya i know, i just hit the wrong reply button, as i usually do. hehe.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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