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Separation of Church and State? Not!
    #8554070 -

For those of you who wonder why agnostics and atheists bash superstitious nutjobs rather than just leave them alone. Here's why: they force-feed their crap to the rest of us through legislated religion:

--

In 1993, Herb Silverman, professor of math at the College of Charleston, tried to apply as notary public. In the pre-printed application there was an oath he had to sign, which ended with "so help me God". He crossed out the "God". His application was thus turned down.

Herb contacted the ACLU. They filed a lawsuit against the state of South Carolina. It took 4 whole years, but in 1997 the state Supreme Court ruled that the law was unconstitutional as it violated both the first and the sixth amendment.

If that doesn't depress you, here are some more that are actually still on the books and CURRENTLY ENFORCED:

1 = Arkansas
2 = Maryland
3 = North Carolina
4 = Pennsylvania
5 = South Carolina
6 = Tennessee
7 = Texas

1 Article 19, Section 1: "No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court".

2 Declaration of Rights, Art. 36: "...nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God..."
Declaration of Rights, Art. 37: "That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution. "

3 Article 6, Section 8: "The following persons shall be disqualified for office:
First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God. "

4Article 1, Section 4: "No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth."

5 Article 6, Section 4: "No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."

6Article 9, Section 2: "No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State. "

7Article 1, Section 4: "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."
Article 4, Section 2: "No person shall be eligible to the office of Governor who denies the existence of the Supreme Being...."
Article 6, Section 2: "No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."

Read more depressing facts here: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1203320


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: Diploid]
    #8556673 -

Source for currently enforced?


I think these laws are clearly unconstitutional and must have only survived due to failure of those afflicted to challenge them.

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: johnm214]
    #8556720 -

separation of church and state is not possible. Someone put it as 'politics is your spirituality demonstrated'. This 'separation' America touts is just not even conceivable, considering the bedrock of the nations judicial system and such is based on religion. therefore, we have mega fuck troubles these days.


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: Diploid]
    #8556741 -

Not at all correct. Torcaso V. Watkins covered this decades ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torcaso_v._Watkins

The Court unanimously found that Maryland's requirement for a person holding public office to state a belief in God violated the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

The Court had previously established in Everson v. Board of Education (1947):

    The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.

Writing for the Court, Justice Hugo Black recalled Everson v. Board of Education, and explicitly linked Torcaso v. Watkins to its conclusions:

    There is, and can be, no dispute about the purpose or effect of the Maryland Declaration of Rights requirement before us - it sets up a religious test which was designed to and, if valid, does bar every person who refuses to declare a belief in God from holding a public "office of profit or trust" in Maryland. ... We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs.

Rebuffing the judgment of the Maryland Court of Appeals, Justice Black added:

    The fact, however, that a person is not compelled to hold public office cannot possibly be an excuse for barring him from office by state-imposed criteria forbidden by the Constitution.

The Court did not base its holding on the no religious test clause of Article VI. In Footnote 1 of the opinion Justice Black wrote:

    Appellant also claimed that the State's test oath requirement violates the provision of Art. VI of the Federal Constitution that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Because we are reversing the judgment on other grounds, we find it unnecessary to consider appellant's contention that this provision applies to state as well as federal offices.

The question of whether the no religious test clause binds the states remains unresolved. Given the Court's First Amendment holding, that issue is largely academic.

The same ruling defines Secular Humanism as a religion. Hmm, how can congress continue with the establishment clause if both theistic and non-theistic belief systems are considered religions?


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: Crasher]
    #8557013 -

Quote:
The same ruling defines Secular Humanism as a religion. Hmm, how can congress continue with the establishment clause if both theistic and non-theistic belief systems are considered religions?



What do you mean?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: zouden]
    #8557028 -

"congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Taking down the 10 commandments, eliminating prayer at school, attempts to remove theistic statements from our currency and anthems. How can such actions therefore not be seen as benefiting non-theistic religions?


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: Crasher]
    #8557034 -

wtf? They're taking down things that are benefiting Christianity, bringing the situation back to the way it should be.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: zouden]
    #8557049 -

If you'd care to elaborate on that and explain how theistic statements on our currency and anthems benefit Christians and suppress non-theists, I'd appreciate it.

Also, please explain the American judicial system's complete lack of Judeo-Christian foundation and what little significance the 10 commandments played in that.

I'm merely of the opinion that the Supreme Court has created a bit of a paradox by allowing non-theistic world views to be considered religions.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

Edited by Crasher (06/24/08 02:31 AM)

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: Crasher]
    #8557064 -

I think it's unfair to say that eliminating prayer in school is an action "benefiting non-theistic religions". The prayers shouldn't be in school in the first place because it's a violation of the constitution. If you don't agree with the first amendment, take it up with the founding fathers.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: zouden]
    #8557072 -

Quote:
The prayers shouldn't be in school in the first place because it's a violation of the constitution.


"or prevent the free exercise thereof"

I agree with the constitution, I disagree with the Supreme Court's interpretation.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: Crasher]
    #8557078 -

The first amendment doesn't stop anyone praying in school if they want to. - but it stops teachers making students pray in class.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: Crasher]
    #8557727 -

Crasher said:
"congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Taking down the 10 commandments, eliminating prayer at school, attempts to remove theistic statements from our currency and anthems. How can such actions therefore not be seen as benefiting non-theistic religions?


The equivalent would be replacing these theist emblems and practices with atheist emblems and practices, not simply removing them.  IOW, instead of "In God We Trust," our currency would say "Do not trust imaginary Beings."  :grin:

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: Veritas]
    #8557774 -

I thought "NIL" would be better.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: Crasher]
    #8557862 -

How about just the denomination of the bill itself, along with identifying info regarding when & where it was printed?  It makes zero sense to include religious sentiments on our currency.

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: MokshaIs]
    #8557954 -

MokshaIs said:
separation of church and state is not possible. Someone put it as 'politics is your spirituality demonstrated'. This 'separation' America touts is just not even conceivable, considering the bedrock of the nations judicial system and such is based on religion. therefore, we have mega fuck troubles these days.


What is the evidence for this bedrock?

And what does it matter?

Have you read the first amendment?  It doesn't require seperation of church and state, it requires congress, and the states by extension, from not establishing religion.

I think you've confused cliche with law, otherwise; what is the relevance for your opening sentance.



Crasher said:
If you'd care to elaborate on that and explain how theistic statements on our currency and anthems benefit Christians and suppress non-theists, I'd appreciate it.

Also, please explain the American judicial system's complete lack of Judeo-Christian foundation and what little significance the 10 commandments played in that.

I'm merely of the opinion that the Supreme Court has created a bit of a paradox by allowing non-theistic world views to be considered religions.


I don't think they benifit christians per say (money and anthems) but they proclaim a belief in god.  I have no problem with this, except when it is established as a requirement for government benifit or service or something like that.  It shouldn't be on the money, but I don't really care.

What does the motivations or underpinnings of our legal system have to do with anything?  The first amendment means what it says, and it doesn't say laws can't be motivated by religion.  Thus, sunday wine sales or whatever should may be banned, even if such ban is motivated by religious beliefs, as it doesn't establish religion or their beliefs on people.

Could you give an example of your last statement re: the court?






Crasher said:
If you'd care to elaborate on that and explain how theistic statements on our currency and anthems benefit Christians and suppress non-theists, I'd appreciate it.

Also, please explain the American judicial system's complete lack of Judeo-Christian foundation and what little significance the 10 commandments played in that.

I'm merely of the opinion that the Supreme Court has created a bit of a paradox by allowing non-theistic world views to be considered religions.


I don't think they benifit christians per say (money and anthems) but they proclaim a belief in god.  I have no problem with this, except when it is established as a requirement for government benifit or service or something like that.  It shouldn't be on the money, but I don't really care.

What does the motivations or underpinnings of our legal system have to do with anything?  The first amendment means what it says, and it doesn't say laws can't be motivated by religion.  Thus, sunday wine sales or whatever should may be banned, even if such ban is motivated by religious beliefs, as it doesn't establish religion or their beliefs on people.

Could you give an example of your last statement re: the court?

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: johnm214]
    #8558503 -

religion is far too much ingrained in america's history to be considered separate from the state. We can chant the separation anthem all day long, but to say that religion has not permeated the "walls" of government is naive IMO. Not only has it permeated the walls, its been settled in for quite some time now and is rather cozy in its infestation. Just pointing out that separation of church and state doesn't seem possible.


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: MokshaIs]
    #8558675 -

Separation of Church and state is possible. That's like if we had said the end of slavery could never be achieved because it is such a big part of our culture. It just isn't true. Not only is separation of Church and State possible, it is necessary to resolve many of the issues we are up against as a nation.


--------------------

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Re: Separation of Church and State? Not! [Re: johnm214]
    #8558791 -

Quote:
Could you give an example of your last statement re: the court?


Torcaso V. Watkins, which I referenced earlier.

I'm sorry, but did everyone just brush over the fact that this thread's premise is incorrect?

"We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs."

I'm afraid to go on, I don't want another warning.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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