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InvisibleTODAY
Battletoad
Male

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
The Almighty Constitution
    #2019870 - 10/18/03 05:49 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

...Seriously, WTF is wrong with this country if we base all of our laws and policies on an a dirty old piece of paper. "so and so is going to jail for the rest of their life because of this little set of words in the all-knowing constitution".
why the FUCK should we believe and trust that this piece of paper has all of the righteous answers? i'm trying to say this a little better but it's late and i'm sleepy...if you get the jist of what i'm saying though i'd love to hear what others think about this.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
Danger Man

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 93,268
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: TODAY]
    #2019880 - 10/18/03 05:57 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

That Constitution guarantees all your basic rights unconditionally. Except when certain polititions feel the need to use it as their doormat to "protect" us and establish the beginnings of a police state, as seen by this current administration. Just my 2 cents.


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InvisibleTODAY
Battletoad
Male

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2019898 - 10/18/03 06:09 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

but our basic rights should really be gauranteed by the decency we should have towards our fellow man...its all too sad that it has to be like this.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
Danger Man

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 93,268
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: TODAY]
    #2019948 - 10/18/03 06:27 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Well, yes..I see your point. If everyone was decent like you or I, in a perfect world, we'd have no need for such documents. Unfortunately, there are lots of not so decent people about, sad to say. :frown: 


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Invisibletak
geo's henchman
Male User Gallery

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Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2020086 - 10/18/03 08:30 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

laws are like religion, after some time, they need to change and adapt to the new world. evolution didnt end with the bible and the constitution. It does guarentee some rights, but shit...they break them anyways.

It could work against us, and completely fuck us up...so im glad we have it to an extent, but things could be soo much better.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
Danger Man

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 93,268
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: tak]
    #2020111 - 10/18/03 09:19 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

True, true. This is why there are allowances for later generations to add amendments. Some can reflect changing positive attitudes such as Article 19 allowing woman to vote. Others can be truly messed up, like Article 21, making Alcoholic beverages illegal.


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Offlinestart25
member
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 111
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: TODAY]
    #2020195 - 10/18/03 11:21 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I do not think you fully understand what the constitution is or entails.

The constitution was a type of contract that the founders created to sustain peace within the colonies since the articles of confederation were not working out. Under the articles, the central government could not raise enough money for a standing army, there were trade disputes and other general problems. The goal was to create a new government that was more centrally unified; yet let states retain their own sovereignty because after coming over form a monarchy in England, the early Americans were scared of the government getting too concentrated and becoming a dictatorship.

The constitution alone does not really guarantee many personal rights to you or make many laws accept very general ones like de facto laws and such. In addition, these laws were only supposed to protect you against the federal government, not the separate state laws. The Bill of Rights or the first ten amendments that were adopted 2 years later, but were promised if the states ratified the constitution are what now guarantee many of the freedoms that are in dispute, and this is only possible because of the 14th amendment and the concept of incorporation.

The constitution describes how the government is to operate, the jobs of all three branches, the checks they place on each other, and specific powers each branch holds. The states were to come up with their own state constitutions that guaranteed social freedoms and the local, more personal laws. This is still the way the country works today in some respects, the state legislatures either interpret and put a federal law into their law through bureaucracy, or in many cases come up with their own laws for their own separate state law codes that are then interpreted/enforced by the bureaucracy. The constitution has very little affect on those laws, especially by this day and age. When people talk about something being unconstitutional, they are usually referring to disputes about Bill of Rights, or a breach of power by the one of the branches or people of those branches.

The constitution is a brilliant document; sure, it is outdated in some areas, but not many (please do not cite the 3/5 compromise, that is a cheap shot, it was a different time when that was incorporated). The Bill of Rights is usually what we look back to when we are debating laws that straddle the line between sovereign rights and government presumptions on what laws should be. If you want to debase our laws, I agree with you, I have trouble with a lot of them too, but the constitution is not the root of these troubles- actually the amendments that came later are the root of some of our problems (the 14th and 16th come to mind), as well as federal legislation from the last century.

Unless of course you are referring to the way the constitution sets up for our laws to be made, then that is a whole other debate. I happen to think that it is pretty damn good system if people did not let it go to shit through greed and apathy.



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OfflineSpokesman
The HighPhilosopher

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey U.S.
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: start25]
    #2020209 - 10/18/03 11:31 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This country believes that those mudereres, slave owning, rapist, fat bastard  who founded this country were perfect. They knew what they wanted for this country and we should pay homege forever and ever. Dont worry this is probably my last post on this subject so FLAME ON PATRIOTS!! :lol:


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Offlinestart25
member
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 111
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: Spokesman]
    #2020223 - 10/18/03 11:42 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

murderers and rapists... really, I know some had sexual relations with many women, and in some cases slaves, but to classsify them all as murderers and rapists seems harsh? those were the times though in regards to the other insults, very few people thought oustide of those norms- how do you know that if you lived in those times you wouldn't subscibe to the same norms, possibly even own slaves?


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Offlinemoogle
newbie

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 49
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: start25]
    #2020294 - 10/18/03 12:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

What a terrific idea. Let's get rid of the 'outdated' constitution, so the U.S. government doesn't even have to make believe anymore that it's authority is granted by any lawful act.


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"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


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Offlinemoogle
newbie

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 49
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: TODAY]
    #2020302 - 10/18/03 12:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TODAY said:
"so and so is going to jail for the rest of their life because of this little set of words in the all-knowing constitution".
why the FUCK should we believe and trust that this piece of paper has all of the righteous answers?



If the constitution were actually enforced, then ANY prohibition would be unlawful without constitutional amendment -- all DEA agents would be executed for treason against the American Republic. Remember the alcohol prohibition? Why are they prohibiting all sorts of products when no constitutional amendment has been made? Hint: the government is operating outside the restrictions of it's own constitution, as no one is holding them to it.


--------------------
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


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Offlinestart25
member
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 111
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: moogle]
    #2020305 - 10/18/03 01:01 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

A true statement. Unfortunately, if you want money to eat, you usually need a job, if you want a job, you need a social security number, if you want a social security number, you have to remain a franchise of the state and abide by its laws. You are a sub corporation of the United States and are bound to their laws by contract; it would be different if you were a sovereign person. See how we are trapped, the only way is to wake up, and change the system with the avenues the constitution preserved for us, and we do not have much time before those avenues are annihilated.

Oh, and if you think you are going to renounce your U.S. citizenship, claim a plot of land and live independently without a struggle- good luck.




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Offlinestart25
member
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 111
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: moogle]
    #2020336 - 10/18/03 01:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"If the constitution were actually enforced, then ANY prohibition would be unlawful without constitutional amendment -- all DEA agents would be executed for treason against the American Republic. Remember the alcohol prohibition? Why are they prohibiting all sorts of products when no constitutional amendment has been made? Hint: the government is operating outside the restrictions of it's own constitution, as no one is holding them to it."

Moogle you are very close and on the right track, but you are missing just a few key pieces of the puzzle. The United States is a corporation and from birth you are made a sub corporation- therefore you must abide by all its laws in order to adhere to the man made contract is has on you, otherwise it can punish you by the laws of the contract. The irs and federal reserve, social security system, 14th amendment and statutory courts make it so that you are not a sovereign person, therefore you must adhere to facets of these man-made contracts. This is leading to an all-encompassing fascist state in which people do not even know they are bound to.

I can post some links or go more in depth if you want. These institutions are key in understanding why the state can do these things to us and get away with it.




Edited by start25 (10/18/03 01:17 PM)


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Offlinemoogle
newbie

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 49
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: start25]
    #2020348 - 10/18/03 01:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

start25 said:
Oh, and if you think you are going to renounce your U.S. citizenship, claim a plot of land and live independently without a struggle- good luck.
[Emphasis added]




Now might be a good time to mention that two types of citizenships exist within the United States (bet they didn't tell you that in high school): A citizen of the United States, and A Citizen of ONE OF the [u]nited States.


--------------------
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


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Offlinestart25
member
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 111
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: moogle]
    #2020352 - 10/18/03 01:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't read the link, but does it refer to the choice of becoming an American National?


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Offlinemoogle
newbie

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 49
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: start25]
    #2020361 - 10/18/03 01:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

start25 said:
I didn't read the link,



Go read it!


--------------------
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


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Offlinestart25
member
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 111
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: moogle]
    #2020372 - 10/18/03 01:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

ok I just read it, but not sure I completely understand it. Is it saying that you can be a citizen of a state and only subject to the sates specific laws, and not the federal government's laws?
And if so can you explain how this would relate in regards to becoming an American national- it seems like becoming an american national would provide more freedom theoretically? in this day and age being a citizen of a state would put you under a lot of the same restraints that being a citizen of the United States would, no?


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Anonymous

Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: TODAY]
    #2020390 - 10/18/03 01:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

the constitution describes how the government is to be run, and establishes checks and balances to ensure that it is indeed run this way.

the constitution limits the power of government, and i say that is a good thing.

now... if we can get them to start abiding by it a little more consistantly...


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Offlinemoogle
newbie

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 49
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: start25]
    #2020404 - 10/18/03 01:55 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

start25 said:
The United States is a corporation and from birth you are made a sub corporation- therefore you must abide by all its laws in order to adhere to the man made contract is has on you, otherwise it can punish you by the laws of the contract.




No one can punish me by any fraudulent law or contract: the worst any can do is murder my physical body in cold blood, and I pity any man or woman who does so, as I ultimately would be harmed none, and those who engaged in such a negative karmic game might suffer for the rest of their existence.


--------------------
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


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Offlinemoogle
newbie

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 49
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Re: The Almighty Constitution [Re: start25]
    #2020440 - 10/18/03 02:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

American National <==> State Citizen (basically).

Each of the States have sort of agreed, at least in the past, to consider Citizens of their fellow States amongst their own. There's no need for inter-state passport, etc.

Quote:

start25 said:
Is it saying that you can be a citizen of a state and only subject to the sates specific laws, and not the federal government's laws?




Mostly, it showed through supreme court rulings how the 14th amendment created a federal class of citizenship for former slaves. Now, the near entirety of americans have somehow been sucked into this class, placing them directly under the jurisdiction of congress (attempting to make you their property).

However, as a State Citizen or American National, you will only become subject to the federal government only when you constitutionally enter their jurisdiction. See the powers granted to them in Article I, Section 8. Most "municipal" (read: internal) jurisdictions, which are basically sub-corporations of the U.S. corporation, created by the act in 1871, may not be able to reign you in (at least lawfully). Almost all courts in the U.S. are not based in the common, constitutional law, but colorable law, and can only deal with colorable persons (corporations, in this instance U.S. corporations -- "U.S. citizens") This has a lot to do with destroying the gold currency in 1933, which I speak a little of in this thread.

I could probably definitely be wrong, as I stopped researching this subject a few years back, since I felt that I had grasped enough of what happened to the Law in this country, and that I could do more in other areas to a greater effect of good than here.

EDIT: "However, as a State Citizen or American National, you will only become subject to the federal government only when..."


--------------------
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


Edited by moogle (10/18/03 02:34 PM)


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